What happened to my clutch ?

[laynrubber]

I swear this Plymouth is going to be the cause of me drinking….
So the transmission was recently installed, ready to move the car finally off the hoist after 2 years. Fired it up tonight, and started to back it out of the garage, YES BACK IT OUT (after the money I spent reverse had better work). Car drove 6 feet back and then the clutch pedal went to the floor !
So back on the hoist ….
Pushing the clutch pedal results in all the linkage working, the throw out bearing slides proper but doesn‘t move the 3 forks. The 3 forks are in the release position already.
What has happened ?! I assume I get to remove the gearbox AGAIN !

 

 

 

[SteveR]

You might want to remove the bottom cover on your bell housing before pulling your tranny. Then have someone depress the clutch pedal and see if the throw out bearing makes contact with the pressure plate. Recheck all linkages as well.

If there is a gap between the pressure plate and throw out bearing there is a binding in the pressure plate. Did you reuse the pressure plate, rebuild it or adjust it?

[Kilgore47]

3 hours ago, SteveR said:

Recheck all linkages as well.

The clutch pedal on the P15 stopped returning to the top one day.  I went under the car and this is what I found.  The linkage shown below was about to fail.  I was able to weld these up and re use them.  There were other worn areas also.  After the repairs were made the clutch works as it should.

[Sam Buchanan]

I recently made the same repair on my P15. The hole in the pushrod was welded and redrilled but instead of salvaging the pin (mine wasn't near that bad) I made a new one out of a 3/8" grade 8 bolt.

[laynrubber]

Thanks for the ideas, I know my linkage is all good. 
What I see is the clutch disc forks are pushed forward, the throw out bearing slides freely fore and aft and when it slides foreword THEN  it touches the 3 arms of the pressure plate. The 3 arms are stuck in the “clutch plate release” position. My thought is maybe….oddly, that the linkage was misadjusted and when I stepped on the clutch pedal it pushed the 3 arms too far and they jammed ? I did have the linkage adjuster backed off when the gear box was out. 
This weekend I will heat the garage up and pull the bell housing cover to see if I can get something in there to snap the pressure plate arms back.

[JerseyHarold]

One of the few mechanical changes to the '52 Plymouth as compared to the '51's is the clutch.  '52 used Auburn and  '51 used Borg and Beck.  Could you have gotten mismatched components?

[laynrubber]

No there is 1500 miles on this set up, I drove it with no reverse for a couple big trips then figured reverse is a handy feature so removed the gearbox and overdrive. Had it repaired then reinstalled last month. Just getting around to finishing the install and I thought a test drive last night until…..the pedal went to the floor and the car stopped moving.

[joecoozie]

"I swear this Plymouth is going to be the cause of me drinking…."

 

Maybe you should have started drinking BEFORE working on it..........

[Mr.P-15]

Hi:

 

Just to be sure I'm understanding the situation correctly:

1. Your clutch pedal is on the floor.

2. Your clutch is effectively fully engaged, disconnecting the engine from the transmission, driveshaft, etc.

3. The car will roll freely.

 

It sems odd that all three forks would stick simultaneously... despite the fact that all the pressure plate springs (tough little dudes to be sure) are trying to restore the forks to their normal position. Check the bolts that mount the pressure plate assembly to the flywheel.

 

When you say "the clutch pedal went to the floor" do you mean that the pedal just fell to the floor of its own volition, or that it just stayed there when you removed your foot? Were there any snapping, banging, etc. sounds? Did the pedal go down with hardly any effort? Also check the (my name) "motion transfer bracket" that is anchored to the frame (on one side), and the engine (on the other). This is the device that pivots by means of a ball swivel and transfers the downward motion of the pedal to the horizontal motion required to actuate the clutch. If the engine mounts are bad, (allowing the engine to move around too much) it can pop out. Pedal action will be disrupted, and you can loose the mating half-swivels that mount in the bracket itself. (On the fly I can't find the proper names in the books.) Hopefully, you did not mess with the overcentre spring.

On first take, and assuming no linkage re-assembly errors, it would seem to me that your pressure plate assembly is, at the worst, kaput. Was the pressure plate assembly correctly re-assembled from a take-apart? The "all three at once" is a bit of a puzzlement.

 

I suspect you will have to remove and replace the pressure plate assembly. BE CAREFUL! since we aren't really sure of what is going on here yet, it is prudent to assume that the a fore mentioned pressure plate springs could/would cause the whole thing to fly apart violently. Since I have never tried to remove the flywheel and pressure plate as a unit, I don't know if there is enough clearance to do so (I suspect not). If possible however, that would be the safest approach. Otherwise, remove the pressure plate cautiously, wear eye protection, you know, the usual stuff.

 

Hope this helps.

 

[laynrubber]

Mr P, the pedal is up off the floor as there is a large return spring holding the pedal up. The clutch disc is fully disengaging the engine from the transmission, I need to confirm this when I pull the bell housing cover off Saturday but from what is see through the bell housing inspection hole yes. The car rolls freely in neutral. I guess I should and can confirm the engine and trans are disconnected by putting it in gear and seeing if it still rolls….Saturday I will.

‘That is indeed weird to have those 3 fork arms stuck as I am imagining because there is tremendous spring tension on that pressure plate and maybe something is broken inside there. I am hoping the removal of the lower bell housing cover will give me a clear picture. 
The pedal has no resistance other than return spring tension, there is no resistance of the throw out bearing moving the pressure plate springs.

‘There was no bang, no noise prior to this, the car stopped being powered in reverse backing off the hoist, things felt weird I hit the brakes and shoved the clutch in. I should have trouble shot it more in that position but I regret I did not.

The pressure plate and disc were new about 1500 miles ago. 
My first thought was my $2100 R10 slipped out of reverse and it failed again…..once back on the hoist I could se the forks arms stuck forward and the throw out bearing sliding as I moved the linkage.

I will open this up more on the weekend and give an update as I dig into it.  (Going to make it easier mentally to put this car up for sale in the spring as I am done messing with it)

[kencombs]

Some clutch designs will allow the levers to go over-center if pushed too far inward.  I've never actually encountered this, except on those with centrifugal assistance weights and then only at speed.   But, have heard tell of such happening.  Maybe the lever height adjustment is so far out that it has gone over center?

[laynrubber]

UPDATE ……

After pulling the bell housing lower cover I can easily see now that the throw out bearing came off its seat on the clutch fork. So the pressure plate forks are fine it is the throw out bearing out of place and amount of throw was not enough to move the forks. There are the 2 spring clips that help hold the fork ends to mating surface on the t.o bearing and when I was installing the gear box those clips were problematic. I loosened all the linkage and can manipulate the fork into position and I can get it all back into place with some bent pliers and some bad words thrown in. Whewww

[MBF]

Did the adjusting collar  come loose on the pivot shaft or is the keyway missing from the collar?

[OUTFXD]

On 11/16/2022 at 9:46 PM, laynrubber said:

I swear this Plymouth is going to be the cause of me drinking

If you drive me to drink, ill pay for gas!

[laynrubber]

This is the fixed picture, the broken picture had the fork not riding on the flat spot of the throw out bearing. Must have turned or became misaligned while installing the gearbox. Those clips were difficult to align with the clutch fork I recall. 

[Saskwatch]

We knew you could prevail Shaune !!

    Take heart & carry on ,

   Thank you for sharing, I for one have learned from this ?

[SteveR]

Whoo-Hoo! You're back in the saddle again!!!?

[DJK]

8 hours ago, laynrubber said:

This is the fixed picture, the broken picture had the fork not riding on the flat spot of the throw out bearing. Must have turned or became misaligned while installing the gearbox. Those clips were difficult to align with the clutch fork I recall. 

Looks like there is no moly grease on the input hub for the t/o brg. to slide easily on.

[OUTFXD]

Are we still going drinking? <jk>

 

 

Good job! Glad it not only turned out for you,  but was an easy fix!

Edited November 21, 2022 by OUTFXD

[laynrubber]

I hoist my mug in celebration tonight….I hope. Going for a snowy test drive in a bit. I will either love the car again….or ???

[SteveR]

*SNOW!* what's that? The last time I saw snow was 25 years ago in Minnesota. England doesn't get snow, or winter for that matter.

[Sniper]

6 hours ago, SteveR said:

*SNOW!* what's that? The last time I saw snow was 25 years ago in Minnesota. England doesn't get snow, or winter for that matter.

 

You know, I have 13 letters in my last name.  If I were to make this kind of statement the next time I looked out my window woolly mammoths would be frolicking in 5 feet of snow.  Sunday it was sleeting hard with fat snowflakes drifting down at the same time, I don't recall ever seeing that combo before.  None of it stuck though.

[SteveR]

In our area West Midlands, the coldest temps were; 24 degrees F in 2010. Pretty pathetic. We use to sunbathe at the lakes back home in that temp. You could see the people here, it is laughable. They are bundled up like Eskimos. I have a down-filled coat that I have never used here in the last 25 years.

[Mr.P-15]

Good for you! (you got off light).  Now fill up the tank, take it for a good LONG ride and enjoy it as these cars were meant to be enjoyed!