Paint / Respray advice needed

[bkahler]

I've reached a dilemma with the paint on my truck.  22 years ago I had it painted using Sherwin Williams 1952 Dodge Truck Green.  After 22 years of having the parts transported all over the country they have ended up with various scratches and scraps along the way.  Enough so that all of the body parts including the cab exterior need to be resprayed.  I have zero plans to respray the interior of the truck or the engine compartment/firewall.  A friend of mine is going to be doing the prep work and painting but first we need to find paint that matches the Sherwin Williams 1952 Dodge Truck Green paint.

 

The issue that we've run into is finding a source for the paint.  Sherwin Williams tells us that the paint code I have is no longer available in their system.  Our next attempt where we actually had some paint mixed was with PPG.  They indicated that they could cross over the 1952 Sherwin Williams paint code to their system and so I bought a pint of their paint to use as touch up, hoping that at that point a respray would not be needed.  Well, the PPG paint isn't even close to the Sherwin Williams paint.  

 

Not living where there is a custom paint shop on every street corner we're struggling trying to find a place that can correctly match the paint that I have on the truck.  I see places online that advertise the ability to color match from an existing sample but none of the shops around here seem to have that sort of capability.  

 

Looking for suggestions on how to proceed.

 

Thanks!

 

Brad

 

 

 

 

[NiftyFifty]

Matching old and faded paint will be virtually impossible, even the sheen will be hard to match unless you spray and buff the entire truck later after it’s cured.  If you want everything matching I’m afraid the only option is to respray the entire truck, and matching the the old colour could be very difficult, 22 years ago you may have used a true enamel paint, now it’s likely a different formulation so that itself can lay down different. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

Unfortunately paint systems is an ever-evolving product.  The big move to leave systems using solvents and go waterborne eliminating the VOC issue is pushing so many lines to the side.   Not to be a bearer of bad news but there is a good chance an overall respray is going to be your best bet for match as blending systems usually can be seen fairly easily.   Secondly, I would try to incorporate the views and such of your experienced painter on all aspects as the man will be more accustomed to the line of paint in his wheelhouse compared to throwing in a mix he is not accustomed to.  So many here use so  many different lines of paint and prep products/techniques all you are going to get is a view of THEIR preference that may not come anywhere close to your immediate needs.  I would be one of those should I make a suggestion.   IF you have to travel to a larger town a few miles away carrying a clean sample of a piece painted prior for matching, this may well be you best time and money spent looking.  But again, ask your painter's input and if you trust his work, you should be able to trust his recommendation also.

[bkahler]

I guess I need to clarify the current condition of the paint.  It looks brand new as far as sheen and color goes.  The truck has never been outside and has no weathering or associated wear.  

 

I don't mind respraying the truck and as a matter of fact that's what I'm now expecting to do.  What I want is to find someone that can take one of my existing small panels and create/mix a match to it so I can respray.

 

Yes, I am willing to pay to have the painter travel with one of the panels to get it matched.  We haven't given up finding something local just yet but so far it's been somewhat disappointing not being able to find something local.  I believe the painter is making a trip today (60 miles or so?) to a shop to see what they can offer.  

 

It just seems odd in this day and age that it's this difficult to match a paint color.  I guess maybe I was just expecting to much....

Edited January 4, 2022 by bkahler

[Eneto-55]

It's like a lot of industries, where no one knows how to do it "manually" (by their own abilities) anymore - it's all the computer that is doing the matching.  When I bought paint for my car 40 years ago, my dad took a small piece that had been protected under a molding, and had it matched.  (It had been repainted twice in its life time before I bought it, once with a brush, and neither was anything at all like the original color.)  I think it's a very close match, but then the whole car was going to be painted with those two gallons I bought at the time.  But them "life happened", and here I am decades later, and some parts of the car were never painted "back then".  I still have most of one gallon left.  Is it still good?  It sloshes around in the can, but I really don't know.  I'll probably not have enough, because the car, like your PU, has picked up a number of scratches here & there over the years.  (Mine WAS outside briefly, being loaded on the trailer, then transported across the country from Oklahoma to Ohio.  Saran wrapped.....)

[bkahler]

8 minutes ago, Eneto-55 said:

It's like a lot of industries, where no one knows how to do it "manually" (by their own abilities) anymore - it's all the computer that is doing the matching.  When I bought paint for my car 40 years ago, my dad took a small piece that had been protected under a molding, and had it matched.  (It had been repainted twice in its life time before I bought it, once with a brush, and neither was anything at all like the original color.)  I think it's a very close match, but then the whole car was going to be painted with those two gallons I bought at the time.  But them "life happened", and here I am decades later, and some parts of the car were never painted "back then".  I still have most of one gallon left.  Is it still good?  It sloshes around in the can, but I really don't know.  I'll probably not have enough, because the car, like your PU, has picked up a number of scratches here & there over the years.  (Mine WAS outside briefly, being loaded on the trailer, then transported across the country from Oklahoma to Ohio.  Saran wrapped.....)

 

Sure sounds familiar

 

I guess since mine was transported from Lincoln to Texas to Arkansas and finally to Kentucky it has been outside but, only long enough to make each trip at which point it was quickly shoved into a shop or garage!

 

There is definitely a strong dependence on computers anymore to do any and everything.  Computers were supposed to make our lives a lot easier.....NOT ?

 

The one can of original paint that I have left was about 1/4 full but over the intervening 20+ years it is now more of a Jell-O mix

 

 

 

[Merle Coggins]

Does your paint store have a scanner, or a book of paint chips? When I painted my truck, many years ago, I printed out a copy of the paint chart from the DPETCA site http://dodgepilothouseclub.org/know/color/imgcol/index.htm that shows the DuPont DULUX or DUCO numbers. And although those were no longer good numbers the guy at my local paint supplier made a phone call to someone and was able to get cross to a modern paint code. He then pulled out a giant book of paint chips and located the one that matched the modern code. I had also brought in my glove box door, as the paint on the inside was still in very good original condition. We were able to verify that the chip in the book did match pretty good to the glove box door. He could then mix up the paint I needed. 

 

I know some shops also have a scanner that they can use to scan your paint, such as on a glove box door, and match it up to a paint mix. 

[Veemoney]

A couple thoughts and keep in mind I don't paint for a living:

1. You have the original paint though thick you may be able to add the recommended thinner/reducer to bring it back to a usable state for filling the scratches. I had some luck with this in the past. Keep in mind it is hard to get an undetectable scratch fill even with the same paint without considerable work. Try it out on a small test spot first.
2. The new paint purchased that is off some you can try tinting it to match. The shop that mixed it could adjust it taking a small sample and adding for example black to darken and compare it to a panel If you brought it to them until they came up with a closer match keeping tabs on what and how much was added. I have cans of old paints and do this myself sometimes for touchups, especially on faded colors.
3. Manually using the books with paint chip colors works well if they have the chips with the holes in the center like the ones shown below. You take the page out of the book and your painted part outside in the sunlight and place the chip page over the part to get the best match comparing your part in the hole to the surrounding paint color in the paint chips till you get the best match.  Check it at different angles. If they don't have the holes they never worked well enough for color matching.

[billrigsby]

 

So, while unfortunately I cannot offer any guidance I am definitely watching this thread, I'm in the same boat 30 years ago I painted my interior and engine bay with the dark green.

 

Exterior is all DP40 epoxy primer, also, everything's been covered unless in transport, from CA to CO.

 

Hopefully this all works out for you.

 

 

[48Dodger]

True color matching takes time and effort and big panels to be sure.

Single stage

Two Stage (base/clear)

Three Stage (base/mid/clear)

All of these come with there own technique to get it right.

IMO I would just plan on painting the whole cab, hood and fenders.

I mean, its not a station wagon or Cadillac....its a cab and some....you can do it.

Use the Sherwin Williams auto paint that's close to the same color.

Fill the deep scratches.

Use a thinned Epoxy primer mix to cover weak spots (an epoxy primers that isn't acid based. DP40 is acid based for bare steel)

Use a 2 stage paint system for painting outside...basecoat it..lightly sand the dust and bugs out after the color drys....spot paint if you need to....than clear it with two coats of clear....let it dry, sand it, thin the clear and clear it again.

Epoxy primers are designed to protect steel (even non acid based epoxy primers) Thinned Epoxy Primer acts as a sealer before painting as well. 

Urethane Primers are thought of as the last stage of body work...liquid body filler, is what I like to say. Its soft and easy to sand.

Epoxy Primer is what you use to cover the Urethane Primer with as a sealer before paint.

Its getting harder to find stand alone Epoxy and Urethane Primers.....they want to make you believe, what they are selling you, can effectively do both.

I always try to get the two separate.

 

 

48D 

[bkahler]

6 hours ago, 48Dodger said:

True color matching takes time and effort and big panels to be sure.

Single stage

Two Stage (base/clear)

Three Stage (base/mid/clear)

All of these come with there own technique to get it right.

IMO I would just plan on painting the whole cab, hood and fenders.

I mean, its not a station wagon or Cadillac....its a cab and some....you can do it.

Use the Sherwin Williams auto paint that's close to the same color.

Fill the deep scratches.

Use a thinned Epoxy primer mix to cover weak spots (an epoxy primers that isn't acid based. DP40 is acid based for bare steel)

Use a 2 stage paint system for painting outside...basecoat it..lightly sand the dust and bugs out after the color drys....spot paint if you need to....than clear it with two coats of clear....let it dry, sand it, thin the clear and clear it again.

Epoxy primers are designed to protect steel (even non acid based epoxy primers) Thinned Epoxy Primer acts as a sealer before painting as well. 

Urethane Primers are thought of as the last stage of body work...liquid body filler, is what I like to say. Its soft and easy to sand.

Epoxy Primer is what you use to cover the Urethane Primer with as a sealer before paint.

Its getting harder to find stand alone Epoxy and Urethane Primers.....they want to make you believe, what they are selling you, can effectively do both.

I always try to get the two separate.

 

 

48D 

 

I came to the conclusion a few days ago that a complete respray of everything except the interior and engine compartment is the only workable approach.   This approach will also allow me to fix a few things that 21 years ago weren't higher on the priority list, mainly the two angle strips that are fastened to the inside of the bed walls.  The originals were somewhat chewed up but still serviceable if need be and at the time I had no idea where to source replacements or if they were even available.  Now that I have all of the correct bed rails in hand I might as well install them properly which means painting them as well. 

 

My only real desire or requirement now is to at least get the exterior color to be a reasonably close match to the interior.  The sample I have from PPG isn't even close.  I don't expect to hear anything back from the painter for a few days or more on the search for matching paint.  He's currently occupied with painting the bumpers and a few other misc. parts black.

 

If I have any hope of making it to Clements I need to get the painting issue resolved soon!

 

 

 

 

[bkahler]

22 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

Does your paint store have a scanner, or a book of paint chips? When I painted my truck, many years ago, I printed out a copy of the paint chart from the DPETCA site http://dodgepilothouseclub.org/know/color/imgcol/index.htm that shows the DuPont DULUX or DUCO numbers. And although those were no longer good numbers the guy at my local paint supplier made a phone call to someone and was able to get cross to a modern paint code. He then pulled out a giant book of paint chips and located the one that matched the modern code. I had also brought in my glove box door, as the paint on the inside was still in very good original condition. We were able to verify that the chip in the book did match pretty good to the glove box door. He could then mix up the paint I needed. 

 

I know some shops also have a scanner that they can use to scan your paint, such as on a glove box door, and match it up to a paint mix. 

 

Part of the problem is Sherwin Williams says they can't cross reference the paint code that was marked on their own can from 2000.  They say it's not in their system anymore.  It seems that without a paint code none of the stores know how to color match the paint.  I think we just need to find the right person to talk to at a good paint store.  Until that happens I'm in limbo.  I have plenty of big panels they can use as a sample.  Finding someone that can do it is the issue I'm dealing with.   

 

I suppose if I was in the heart of Los Angeles or Phoenix where there is a custom paint store on every corner it might be easier.  I may end up taking a couple of days off and driving up to Cincinnati or down to Knoxville to see what I can find.  I don't give up easily and this search isn't over yet

 

 

[ggdad1951]

Where did you get your bed/edge strips from?  Hopefully Midwest Military?  They are the only ones to provide correct parts that I know of.

[bkahler]

3 minutes ago, ggdad1951 said:

Where did you get your bed/edge strips from?  Hopefully Midwest Military?  They are the only ones to provide correct parts that I know of.

 

Yep, Midwest Military.  All seven pieces came to $243 delivered in 2019.  I'm sure prices are a lot higher now due to shipping costs.

[kencombs]

1 hour ago, bkahler said:

 

Part of the problem is Sherwin Williams says they can't cross reference the paint code that was marked on their own can from 2000.  They say it's not in their system anymore.  It seems that without a paint code none of the stores know how to color match the paint.  I think we just need to find the right person to talk to at a good paint store.  Until that happens I'm in limbo.  I have plenty of big panels they can use as a sample.  Finding someone that can do it is the issue I'm dealing with.   

 

I suppose if I was in the heart of Los Angeles or Phoenix where there is a custom paint store on every corner it might be easier.  I may end up taking a couple of days off and driving up to Cincinnati or down to Knoxville to see what I can find.  I don't give up easily and this search isn't over yet

 

 

you might try their corporate  automotive customer service 800-798-5872.   maybe they have access to more info than individual stores.

[bkahler]

17 hours ago, kencombs said:

you might try their corporate  automotive customer service 800-798-5872.   maybe they have access to more info than individual stores.

 

Interesting thought that I don't think we've considered.  I'll pass this on to the painter.

 

Thanks for the idea and number.

 

[47Jim]

I was the paint matcher for SW here in Tulsa in the 90’s, I’m incredibly disappointed in your local paint shops customer service, paint is custom mixed and matched everyday at any decent paint store, it’s not that difficult 

 

No paint codes that originally were lacquer are transferable to modern materials, they all have to be custom mixed either starting with a scanner or just an experienced employee but it’s not that big of a deal, it’s done every single day 

You don’t need a giant panel to take for a match, any decent shop can work with something the size of your gas door on your minivan, as long as the color is clear, if it’s faded, polish it out with cleaner wax (Meguires) once it’s mixed then they spray it out on a piece of thick paper taped to a stir stick to compare, this sample is submitted for your approval and any changes are made until you’re happy and head out the door 

Call some shops in Cincinnati before driving out there, discuss their particular process for your needs, if you need, pick a shop and I’ll talk to them. Jim Heath 918-688-2232

[bkahler]

28 minutes ago, 47Jim said:

I was the paint matcher for SW here in Tulsa in the 90’s, I’m incredibly disappointed in your local paint shops customer service, paint is custom mixed and matched everyday at any decent paint store, it’s not that difficult 

 

No paint codes that originally were lacquer are transferable to modern materials, they all have to be custom mixed either starting with a scanner or just an experienced employee but it’s not that big of a deal, it’s done every single day 

You don’t need a giant panel to take for a match, any decent shop can work with something the size of your gas door on your minivan, as long as the color is clear, if it’s faded, polish it out with cleaner wax (Meguires) once it’s mixed then they spray it out on a piece of thick paper taped to a stir stick to compare, this sample is submitted for your approval and any changes are made until you’re happy and head out the door 

Call some shops in Cincinnati before driving out there, discuss their particular process for your needs, if you need, pick a shop and I’ll talk to them. Jim Heath 918-688-2232

 

Jim, what you've just stated is what I assumed was possible and had heard was possible but couldn't find anyone to tell me they could do it! 

 

Thank you for information.  I will pass this on to the painter and will likely end up going to the paint store(s) with him.  

 

One question, I assume any brand i.e. PPG, SW, etc. should be able to do this, correct?  

 

Thank you again!

 

Brad

 

[47Jim]

Correct, any decent auto paint supplier should be able to do this, be prepared for what I call “modern labor “ meaning, some possible attitude from the counter guy heming and hawing about how tedious and time consuming it will be, they’re not used to dealing with walk ins but usually big account body shops that are usual customers, be steadfast and patient, some might be busy and want you to drop it off, be prepared for that, but make sure it’s exactly what you want when they give that final spray out, hopefully you’ll find some car people 

 

call in the evening if you have any questions. Jim

[47Jim]

I just did all this about six months ago at my local SW auto finishes store

i have 40 year old paint I had matched, I got it in single stage acrylic enamel, that way I got some to spray on big sections and I had them put half of it in spray cans for small jobs, I’ll post some pictures tonight 

[bkahler]

4 hours ago, 47Jim said:

Correct, any decent auto paint supplier should be able to do this, be prepared for what I call “modern labor “ meaning, some possible attitude from the counter guy heming and hawing about how tedious and time consuming it will be, they’re not used to dealing with walk ins but usually big account body shops that are usual customers, be steadfast and patient, some might be busy and want you to drop it off, be prepared for that, but make sure it’s exactly what you want when they give that final spray out, hopefully you’ll find some car people 

 

call in the evening if you have any questions. Jim

 

There are advantages to living in large population areas.  I don't believe there are any automotive paint stores in Richmond.  The closest one that I know of that actually mixes paint is about 35 miles away.  The SW is about the same distance and they basically said can't do it.  Knowing that it is possible just means we need to dig deeper

 

Thanks for the offer.  Nothing will happen this week/weekend as we're in the middle of a blizzard and I have a hunch things will be shutdown through the weekend.

 

Thanks!

 

[bkahler]

2 hours ago, 47Jim said:

I just did all this about six months ago at my local SW auto finishes store

i have 40 year old paint I had matched, I got it in single stage acrylic enamel, that way I got some to spray on big sections and I had them put half of it in spray cans for small jobs, I’ll post some pictures tonight 

 

Good idea about getting some of it in spray cans.  Worth the extra money even if they sit on the shelf and never get used.

[47Jim]

Here’s mine, faded 1970’s paint, pulled off a chunk and waxed the heck out of it for the match, had them add a little flattener to it to knock down the gloss,  it’s still glossy of course but you just have to scuff it a little to match, you can see the rear fender is repainted, waiting to be scuffed up.

 Again the matching process works for any paint new or old and can be properly executed with time by a skilled professional 

[bkahler]

The painter has found someone in Moorehead Ky that thinks they can match the paint.  He's going to head over there mid week so maybe by the end of next week I'll have some paint.

 

Thanks again!!

 

Stay tuned.....

 

Brad

[bkahler]

We have a MATCH

 

The painter took one of my green panels to the paint store and the owner spent some time mixing and matching and low and behold I now have paint to perform a respray that should look pretty good.

 

The new paint is dabbed on just above the small dent in the center of the picture.  The dab is about the size of a finger tip.  It's a close enough match that I couldn't find it when I was given the panel and told to find it!  

 

I ended up buying a gallon plus two spray cans filled with the paint for future use.  

 

Is it going to be a perfect match?  Probably not but it sure looks close enough that I don't think I'll have anything to complain about.  

 

Jim, thanks for the assistance in being able to move forward with this task

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by bkahler