Did I damage my Overdrive?

[dwest999]

Hello all,

 

Last weekend I picked up a 40 Plymouth that does have OD on it.  The man I purchased it from was elderly and couldn't really remember how the OD works.  I just watched a great video on YT explaining the R10 OD (which is what I think I have). 

 

I now know have a good idea on how the OD works; however, here's the rub.  When the car was driven on to the trailer the OD lever was pushed all the way in which I believe means the OD was engaged.  We did have to back it up once to better align the car and then continued to drive it up on the trailer.  The OD was wired up with a toggle switch under the dash , but I am not sure if the switch was on or off.  When we got it home we tried to unload the car but it wouldn't start.  We tried to push it off the trailer but the car also wouldn't roll (it was in neutral).  Assuming maybe the brakes were sticking/stuck we finally go it off the trailer by using the starter and bumping it off the trailer while in reverse (I know not optimal, but there wasn't any other way at the time).

 

I was horrified after watching the YT video when I realized that I might have damaged the OD by trying to move it while in reverse (that is assuming the OD was engage, I'm not sure if it was).  Now I am at a loss at what to do next.  The car is still running as I've been waiting on parts all week (USPS is still very slow).  Once I get it started I'm not really sure what to do next.  My questions are...

 

1.  How do I check to see if the transmission is working?  Do I put it in drive and see what happens?

2. Although in neutral the car still doesn't roll, should I assume it's still in gear?  Maybe the brakes are indeed sticking/stuck?

3. If all of fails and the car still doesn't want to move after I put it in gear does anyone know of someone how knows/services these OD?  Is that a specialist or can I take it to a local shop that works on vintage transmissions?

4.  Are parts still available?

 

Sorry for the long email; I'm kind of freaked out / frazzled that I might have really damaged this new to me car I just bought.

 

Thank you.

 

Dave

[Sniper]

Stupid question, but is the parking brake off?

[dwest999]

Yes, we were afraid to pull it as we we're sure it would release... good thought though.  My next step is to jack the car up to see if any of the wheels spin.

[plyroadking]

They're pretty easy to rebuild/repair depending on which one you have. Could either be an R7 or a R10. If its an R10 then it's easy and cheaper. The R10 was used by chevy, ford, studebaker, hudson, etc. However the cases and shafts are different but most internals will interchange. Rolling them in reverse with the overdrive cable shoved in can upset the spragg clutch. They have a lockout rod that temporarily "disengages" overdrive when shifted into reverse. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

4 minutes ago, plyroadking said:

They're pretty easy to rebuild/repair depending on which one you have. Could either be an R7 or a R10. If its an R10 then it's easy and cheaper. The R10 was used by chevy, ford, studebaker, hudson, etc. However the cases and shafts are different but most internals will interchange. Rolling them in reverse with the overdrive cable shoved in can upset the spragg clutch. They have a lockout rod that temporarily "disengages" overdrive when shifted into reverse. 

and they all owe a thank you to Chrysler not only for the invention...but for letting BW market it to them.

[dwest999]

I think the OD came out of an R10 as it was pulled from either a 52 or 53 Chrysler.  Once I get it running what would be the best way to check and see if the transmission is damaged?  I don't want to just throw it in gear and hope for the best... right?  Thanks.

[Dodgeb4ya]

A 1952 or 53 Chrysler would not have an R10 OD....

It would have the M6 trans hi/lo range 4 speed though.

[knuckleharley]

I understand you are a new ancient Mopar owner and excited. Trust me,we have ALL "been there".

 

My best advise at this moment is to not panic. Once you get it running,wheather or not the overdrive works will be obvious. If it isn't,ask questions about how to fix it and where to buy the parts,or as an option,where to ship it to have it rebuilt.

 

If it isn't damaged,that will be obvious too,so take a couple of deep breaths and go enjoy a drive in it.

 

If you can get this excited about something like  a working/not working overdrive,you just might stroke out if something serious goes wrong. 

 

Remember,there is always PLENTY of time to panic if panic becomes necessary.

 

MY opinion is your very first focus should be on replacing all the brake lines with new copper/nickel brake lines,replace all the brake hoses with new ones,and all the wheel cylinders with new ones. Throw in a new or rebuilt master cylinder to "put the icing on that cake".

 

While you are doing this,take a good look at the brake shoes and springs. If any part on any wheel looks bad,replace that part and ALL the related parts.

 

Not to mention make damn sure your emergency brake works.

 

Also,be cautious about driving it any further than the end of your driveway until you replace all 4 tires with new ones.

Edited June 11, 2021 by knuckleharley

[Loren]

Just my humble opinion, worth exactly what you've paid for it but...

The T-handle Overdrive cable is for locking the Overdrive into direct drive mainly for parking so the car won't roll.

The Sprag Clutch will allow movement in one direction (but not in the other) when the handle is in.

A car stuck in gear will still move (with difficulty) by forcing the engine to revolve. Of course if the engine is stuck as well, it won't.

Brake friction material will rust to drums (and rotors) causing the car not to move.

On an early post war Mopar the parking brake set for decades could have rusted to the drum. I would take a look at that.

If the engine starts and stalls when you put it in gear and let the clutch out, it's more likely the parking brake than the transmission.

I can tell you a Mopar parking brake left on will stop a car dead in the water! (once it gets hot enough)

Can you hurt the Overdrive while trying to roll the car?

Not likely.

I am concerned by any B-W Overdrive switched with a toggle however.

They were not made to be used that way and they can be damaged.

I would get it hooked up correctly pronto!

If there is damage to it, then very likely it was done years before you got the car.

[dwest999]

Loren,  thanks for weighing in with your perspective.  The car was running... I drive it on to the trailer.  Then, after an 8 hour drive it wouldn't roll.  I checked the ebrake and that's not engaged.  The car did move in forward and reverse with the help of the starter, but I haven't tried to move it since.  My buddy is coming over tomorrow to help me set the dwell and hopefully get the old rig started.  Then we'll see if it's the brakes or transmission.  I've got a bunch of maintenance to do to the car including rewiring the OD correctly.  Move to come.  Thanks again and I hope you're enjoying your new ride... 

[keithb7]

You’ll get it sorted Dwest. Quick and easy to block up all 4 corners. You can check wheel movement. Bearings. Clutch driveline brakes etc. I’ve had mine idling in gear, safely blocked up. Bumper butted up against a wall. A mechanic stethoscope in my ears. I probe wheel bearings, pinion, diff, tranny etc while its all turning. 

 

Probably more of a strain dealing with the scorned look from your partner....You just bought that for how much? It won’t even limp itself off the trailer?...Really? ?

[dwest999]

Quick update.  We (a friend who know a lot more than me) and I got the '40 Plymouth going today.  We ended up having to install a new coil (old one was weak), new battery cables (old ones were frayed and the negative was shorting out), reset points as there was way too much gap, replaced the plugs, etc.  Got the car going but it was missing really bad, then it stalled and wouldn't start... checked the plugs and no spark (again!). 

 

Ended up pulling the distributor to reset the points.  We also replaced the condenser.  Put it back in the car and it started and idled for about 10 minutes.  We able to drive it around the block but it was sputtering all the way... now guessing it's bad gas or the carb may need to be rebuild (probably both).  Good news is (1) the car starts, runs, drives, stops and (2) it shifts which I think means the OD is probably not damaged (yah).

 

Anyway, thanks to all of you.  

 

Dave

[knuckleharley]

49 minutes ago, dwest999 said:

Quick update.  We (a friend who know a lot more than me) and I got the '40 Plymouth going today.  We ended up having to install a new coil (old one was weak), new battery cables (old ones were frayed and the negative was shorting out), reset points as there was way too much gap, replaced the plugs, etc.  Got the car going but it was missing really bad, then it stalled and wouldn't start... checked the plugs and no spark (again!). 

 

Ended up pulling the distributor to reset the points.  We also replaced the condenser.  Put it back in the car and it started and idled for about 10 minutes.  We able to drive it around the block but it was sputtering all the way... now guessing it's bad gas or the carb may need to be rebuild (probably both).  Good news is (1) the car starts, runs, drives, stops and (2) it shifts which I think means the OD is probably not damaged (yah).

 

Anyway, thanks to all of you.  

 

Dave

Don't get too cocky about the brakes. They ARE going to fail. Maybe tomorrow,maybe next week,or maybe next month,but they ARE going to fail. Rotten rubber,water from condensation in the brake lines,rust in the brake lines,etc,etc,etc. I don't know which it will be,but ONE of them is going to be responsible for you not being able to stop.

 

Don't ask me how I know this.

 

If you end up wrecking your car due to failed brakes,you now have nobody but yourself to blame.

[dwest999]

Whoa Knuckeharley.. pump the brakes (excuse the pun).. I really appreciate the guidance and caution.  The plan is to rebuild the carb and address the brakes before any real driving.  It appears as if the passenger side drum is dragging really bad.  I'll need to rebuild all of the cylinders with new rubber lines.  Also have to look at the master.  The brake lines look as if they've been replaced.  So, the brakes are at the top of the list.  Good times. 

[knuckleharley]

3 hours ago, dwest999 said:

Whoa Knuckeharley.. pump the brakes (excuse the pun).. I really appreciate the guidance and caution.  The plan is to rebuild the carb and address the brakes before any real driving.  It appears as if the passenger side drum is dragging really bad.  I'll need to rebuild all of the cylinders with new rubber lines.  Also have to look at the master.  The brake lines look as if they've been replaced.  So, the brakes are at the top of the list.  Good times. 

Start looking around and pricing a replacement front bumper,fenders,hood,headlights,and radiator for your car,and I believe you will suddenly have a new appreciation for rebuilding the entire braking system.

 

BTW,it is generally cheaper these days to buy new wheel cylinders than it is to buy the kits. Seriously.

 

As for brake lines,look at the prices for copper/nickel brake lines at Advance Auto and tell me you are still willing to run the old steel lines that rust inside.

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/web/SearchResults?storeId=10151&catalogId=10051&langId=-1&searchTerm=copper nickel brake lines&pageId=partTypeList&actionSrc=Form&campmedium=aaplocator&campsource=jv&campcampaign=locationEntity&campcontent=productsearch

[dwest999]

KH, thank you.  Any suggestions on the best place to buy new cylinders and the rubber lines.  Also, here’s a picture of the car.  I love these old Plymouth so much more than the Fords snd Chevys of the same vintage.

[knuckleharley]

DAYUM! Major score!

 

One day,when/if I ever grow up,I'm going to buy cars like that!

 

As for the wheel cylinder,my advise is to remove one from the rear and one from the front,and use the parts numbers on them for a  web search. 

 

When I went looking for new wheel cylinders (forget finding kits) for my 37 IHC PU,the cheapest I could find them were some NOS wheel cylinders a IHC specialist had in stock,and he wanted $99 each for them!

 

So I copied the parts numbers and did a web search,and discovered that 53 and 54 Corvettes used the same wheel cylinder (a Borg-Warner,IIRC),and they were on sale at a vendor on Amazon for $4.95 each,including shipping.

 

Don't remember where I got the master cylinder from or what it cost,but the price was nothing special either way,so I don't remember.

 

It really pays to look around.

Edited June 13, 2021 by knuckleharley

[RobertKB]

10 hours ago, dwest999 said:I love these old Plymouth so much more than the Fords snd Chevys of the same vintage.

That is a gorgeous car!! Any dark colour, especially black, really shows the curves these old girls have!

[Dartgame]

Dwest take a look at Randy Rundles page on overdrives - https://fifthaveinternetgarage.blogspot.com/2017/01/borg-warner-r-10-and-r-11-overdrives.html

[T120]

Very good information and worth reading for those who are interested in the R10 and R11 Borg Warner overdrive. Thank you for posting the link. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by T120

[T120]

BTW, Sorry to learn Randy Rundle passed away this year. RIP...

[dwest999]

Dartgame,

 

Thank you for the reference, I read Randy's page on ODs a couple of days ago.  I was very informative.  I too also learned of his passing at 62.  So sad.

 

Dave

[dwest999]

Forum Friends,

 

Quick update, I pulled the distributor today and sent it off to Jeff at Advanced Distributors for a rebuild.  After talking to Jeff it seems as if the symptoms my car is display could very well be related to the distributor.  In the meantime I'll be working on the brakes and carburetor.  I want to thank you all for the support you've provided.

 

More to come.

 

Dave

[dwest999]

Another update.  I pulled the carburetor apart to rebuild it and noticed the step up assembly was stuck and not moving.  I actually had to use pliers to pull out piston.  So as I wait for the rebuilt distributor I'm going to reassemble the carburetor with the rebuild kit I got from Mike's Carburetor and reinstall it.  More to come.

[James_Douglas]

11 hours ago, dwest999 said:

Another update.  I pulled the carburetor apart to rebuild it and noticed the step up assembly was stuck and not moving.  I actually had to use pliers to pull out piston.  So as I wait for the rebuilt distributor I'm going to reassemble the carburetor with the rebuild kit I got from Mike's Carburetor and reinstall it.  More to come.

If you research old threads you will find a write on these by me...