PerTronix Ignition Plunge

[Stargrinder]

Alright folks ... I think I am going to take the plunge and install a Pertronix ignition system  But I am unable to find a lot of info and don't want to jack anything up especially since install of the pertronix requires modification of the mounting plate inside the distributor.  So I need some advise.

 

Here goes... I am running the stock distributor on my 1950 Dodge Coronet (Chrysler IAT-4003).  I have the stock electric 6V and and wiring (positive ground).  I called PerTronix and they gave me the proper ignitor kit (1362P6) and coil (40011 Flame-Thrower) for my setup.

 

I downloaded the instructions for the ignitor kit and the install looks pretty straight forward.  Positive side of the coil goes to ground.  The black/white wire on the ignitor goes to the positive side of the coil and the black wire goes to the vehicle's ignition switch wire. 

 

The problem is that I don't know where the ignition switch wire is.  I have looked at the wiring schematic in the service manual and I see that the wire is probably the wire that is currently connected to the negative side of the existing coil.  To me it looks like the ignition wire runs from the ignition over to the horn relay then over to the starter solenoid, then over to the coil.  At the coil it looks like on the same negative post there is another wire that runs up to what I am guessing is the circuit breaker at on the bar that connects the loom to the air cleaner.  On that breaker there is termination point that has "ING".  I am not sure it that is a termination for the ignition.

 

One of the problems is that the wires have been bundled and rapped with electrical tape at some point and the wires that connect to the various termination points are also wrapped so I can't tell the intended color.

 

I put a toner on the wires but these damn thins are so old I get a lot of bleed-over on the tone so that was not very useful.

 

What I plan to do is disconnect the two wires that are currently on the negative terminal on the existing coil and splice them together.  I would then connect the black wire on the Pertronix to that bundle (so it would basically pig-tail).  I am thinking that is the connection to the ignition switch wire.  Or possibly go ahead and splice the two wires together that are currently on the negative terminal and then connect the black wire from the Pertronix to the termination point ("ING") on the circuit breaker.

 

I am looking for a little help from someone who knows.  I have attached a couple picture.

 

PerTronix1362P6.pdf Pertronix Positive Ground Wiring.pdf

Edited November 2, 2020 by Stargrinder

[Tom Skinner]

Cool don't do it

 

[Stargrinder]

49 minutes ago, Tom Skinner said:

Cool don't do it

 

Did you have a bad experience?

[Tom Skinner]

No. I am all original. No problem staying that way, I have heard the problems with Fluid drive conversions.

I do not mind dialing my car in from time to time. I take pride in being able to do it.

[Sniper]

the wire hooked to the stock coil's negative terminal is the ignition switch wire mention in the drawing.

[Stargrinder]

51 minutes ago, Sniper said:

the wire hooked to the stock coil's negative terminal is the ignition switch wire mention in the drawing.

I was guessing that was the case but wanted to get a second opinion from some of the knowledgeable folks here.
I have followed many of your posts... You really seem to know these old cars well. 

[Sniper]

1 hour ago, Stargrinder said:

I was guessing that was the case but wanted to get a second opinion from some of the knowledgeable folks here.
I have followed many of your posts... You really seem to know these old cars well. 

 thank you, I've fooled with them since the 80's and had the occasion to work with guys that fooled with them when they were new and I tried to pay attention.

[Frank Gooz]

I would like to follow along. I have tried two times The guy at Pertronix ended up being no help to me at all. I tried to explain about our transmissions tied to the ignition  and got no where. 

I did read a post about a 7 ohms resister and that was needed on the fluid drive cars. 

 

[Stargrinder]

5 hours ago, Frank Gooz said:

I would like to follow along. I have tried two times The guy at Pertronix ended up being no help to me at all. I tried to explain about our transmissions tied to the ignition  and got no where. 

I did read a post about a 7 ohms resister and that was needed on the fluid drive cars. 

 

Frank,

Interesting.  Now I am curious...

What model Pertronix did you try, what was your wiring configuration, and what were your results?  Sorry for all the questions but I am trying to become as informed as I can possibly be.  I am very interested in the experiences of others (successes and failures).

 

Theo

[Doug&Deb]

The resistor is crucial if you have the gyromatic trans. I didn’t know that when I did the conversion on my 52 Coronet and the module burned up after starting the car 3 times. I’m back to points. I’ll do the extra maintenance for now. If you search the technical archive you will find threads on how to properly do the conversion with the gyromatic. 

[Phil Martin]

I called pertronic they said with gyromatic I would need that resistor. Only problem is could not find one anywhere. Stayed with points ignitition. Seems to really like to eat its points but runs ok.

[Plymouthy Adams]

points today are some kind of plastic rubbing block at best where at one time I think nylon was the transition from phenolic....finding NOS phenolic is better overall but getting harder to source....this makes for frequent tune ups as many do not tweak the gap often enough to get the wear from the tungsten surface of the point due to accelerated wear of the breaker...Yes...I am guilty of that also...I need to install points in my 54 now....

[Adam H P15 D30]

Buy 2 Ignitors so when it fails unexpectedly, you have a spare to get you home.  It will let you down so prepare....

[Stargrinder]

7 hours ago, Doug&Deb said:

The resistor is crucial if you have the gyromatic trans. I didn’t know that when I did the conversion on my 52 Coronet and the module burned up after starting the car 3 times. I’m back to points. I’ll do the extra maintenance for now. If you search the technical archive you will find threads on how to properly do the conversion with the gyromatic. 

Are you runnng 6V or a 12V electric system?  Which model distributor do you have and which Pertronix kit were you using?  Sounds like this may be more trouble than it is worth.

[rallyace]

Just my two cents worth, but I have been let down by a new Pertronix ignition at a less than desirable time (middle lane of the interstate in rush hour traffic with my MG-B).  I am not a fan. Once upon a time they were great but unless things have changed in the last few months, I would not trust one. It took three weeks for them to finally acknowledge that the module was bad so I could get a refund. Many others have had the same issue with them over the last couple of years. As has been mentioned, a properly set up points ignition will work fine. I do a tune up every spring on my 51 Cambridge which includes carefully filing the points and setting the dwell angle and have not been let down.

[Stargrinder]

2 hours ago, rallyace said:

Just my two cents worth, but I have been let down by a new Pertronix ignition at a less than desirable time (middle lane of the interstate in rush hour traffic with my MG-B).  I am not a fan. Once upon a time they were great but unless things have changed in the last few months, I would not trust one. It took three weeks for them to finally acknowledge that the module was bad so I could get a refund. Many others have had the same issue with them over the last couple of years. As has been mentioned, a properly set up points ignition will work fine. I do a tune up every spring on my 51 Cambridge which includes carefully filing the points and setting the dwell angle and have not been let down.

I am slowly becoming convinced that I need to stick with the original points and condenser design.  I guess part of my apprehension is that I wanted something I just set once and not worry about again.  I admit I am somewhat new to these vintage car scene.  I have learned a hell of a lot since I picked up this car back in January.  I guess I need to learn how to pull the distributer, adjust the points, and set the timing. 

[maok]

I have been running a Pertronix module for 5 years in my '28 Chrysler and a few months now in my '37 dodge, when wired correctly and most importantly, the current flow through the module is correct, which is probably why people have failures (when it's not), via the right coil resistance, Pertronix mod works well.

[49WINDS]

I took the Pertronix plunge a few months ago, and while it was definitely confusing at first-I am very happy with the end results. I was lucky enough to get some tips from a fellow member on this site who had done the conversion himself. If you go to this post: 

you will see the diagram he provided, as well as several pictures of the steps I went through. The instructions don't state it but you do have to modify the points mounting plate in order to bolt on the sensor. For me I had to take off the small offset screw that was used to adjust the points before. Also, if you don't have the fluid-drive transmission then you don't need to worry about the resistor. If you do have it though you'll see in my posts there was also a mention of where to purchase such a resistor. I can try and take some more pics later to put them on here if it might help you.

 

Edit: Also-my wires were taped up and different colors of wires had been spliced in at one point so I had no idea which one was the ignition wire either. The best way is to get a VOM or test light and figure out which wire gets 6V when you turn the key on. That then is your ignition wire, and the other wire (if you have fluid-drive) is the ground wire that temporarily shorts out the ignition so it can let the transmission shift.

Edited November 2, 2020 by 49WINDS
added more info

[Stargrinder]

55 minutes ago, 49WINDS said:

I took the Pertronix plunge a few months ago, and while it was definitely confusing at first-I am very happy with the end results. I was lucky enough to get some tips from a fellow member on this site who had done the conversion himself. If you go to this post: 

you will see the diagram he provided, as well as several pictures of the steps I went through. The instructions don't state it but you do have to modify the points mounting plate in order to bolt on the sensor. For me I had to take off the small offset screw that was used to adjust the points before. Also, if you don't have the fluid-drive transmission then you don't need to worry about the resistor. If you do have it though you'll see in my posts there was also a mention of where to purchase such a resistor. I can try and take some more pics later to put them on here if it might help you.

 

Edit: Also-my wires were taped up and different colors of wires had been spliced in at one point so I had no idea which one was the ignition wire either. The best way is to get a VOM or test light and figure out which wire gets 6V when you turn the key on. That then is your ignition wire, and the other wire (if you have fluid-drive) is the ground wire that temporarily shorts out the ignition so it can let the transmission shift.

Winds,
Thanks for the information and link.  I am running the fluid drive so I definitely want to make sure the vehicle shifts as intended.  I have heard talk about the resistor but the drawing is a great help.  I definitely would not have thought about changing the interrupt from the + terminal of the coil to the - terminal.  Not sure it fully makes sense to me but if you got it working then that is proof.  What model Pertronix did you install?  

 

Also I would really appreciate any pics of your install that you could post/provide.  Your post is starting to convince me that going this route may not be a complete nightmare.  

Edited November 2, 2020 by Stargrinder

[49WINDS]

Stargrinder - I checked what model of Pertronix I bought and it was the 2563LSP6, which may just be different since we have different distributors, but the important part is that they are both meant for positive 6V systems (the "P6" in the name). I do have the same 40011 coil as you so I imagine it should still wire up the same. I just took some pics of what it looks like in there now-the circuit breaker/junction block on my car is on the fender for some reason but it looks like they still have the same wiring layout. I suppose you could hook up the resistor anywhere on the wire that comes from the solenoid on the transmission, the hardest part may be just finding it elsewhere lol. Another thing to be sure to check once you get it all running is your idle speed. I don't have a way to measure it so I just went by the sound of the engine. When I went for a test drive it would not up shift at all and I was worried I burned something up. After overthinking it way too much I finally turned down the idle and it worked perfectly after that. I do have a cheap timing light so I was about to roughly set the timing to probably 5 to 10 degrees BTDC. The factory specs state it should be right at 0 but I've read in numerous other posts that with today's better gas you can advance the timing and get a little better performance out of it.

 

Hope these pictures help and don't hesitate to ask if you have any more questions!

 

Edit-I just remembered after looking at theses pictures: be sure you get plug wires with some sort of radio suppression! The normal OEM wires are not shielded which doesn't matter with points, but with this electronic ignition it can cause interference.

 

Also on that last picture the labeling I put may be confusing. Where it says "Interrupt to ignition" doesn't mean that's the actual ignition wire. It's just the wire that goes to the coil. Your junction block isn't covered in paint like mine is so you can see the top right where it says "IGN" is that wire.

Edited November 3, 2020 by 49WINDS
added more info

[keithb7]

A distributor does not need to be pulled/removed to change points, or the condenser. Nor file the points and set the dwell. There’s not much to it.
 

“Setting it and forgetting it” is not a common theme with these old cars. You’ll want to be under hood for multiple other reasons. Checking various things regularly. There is quite a long list of items to maintain and be checking. 

[Hamilton]

I installed a Pertronix unit in my `49 Plymouth a few months ago.  I've put very few miles on the car since then so I can't really speak to the reliability/longevity of the unit but it does seem to work well so far.

 

One point of contention: when I first took the unit out of the box it I couldn't figure out how to orient it so that it would fit.  After a minute or so of turning it over and around trying to see how it went in I figured out that the module had been attached to the wrong side of the mounting plate (was riveted to the bottom of the plate).  I had to drill out the rivets, move the module to the other side and re-rivet it.  It took only a few minutes but really made me question Pertronix's atention to quality control.

 

_

[Booger]

1 hour ago, keithb7 said:

A distributor does not need to be pulled/removed to change points, or the condenser. Nor file the points and set the dwell. There’s not much to it.
 

“Setting it and forgetting it” is not a common theme with these old cars. You’ll want to be under hood for multiple other reasons. Checking various things regularly. There is quite a long list of items to maintain and be checking. 

My first Plymouth 50 years ago got zero attention at all. Lucky to get an oil change. And we beat the dogxxxx out of it. What has changed? Crappy parts? These things are one step above a tractor engine. Open that can of worms if you must

[Stargrinder]

14 hours ago, 49WINDS said:

Stargrinder - I checked what model of Pertronix I bought and it was the 2563LSP6, which may just be different since we have different distributors, but the important part is that they are both meant for positive 6V systems (the "P6" in the name). I do have the same 40011 coil as you so I imagine it should still wire up the same. I just took some pics of what it looks like in there now-the circuit breaker/junction block on my car is on the fender for some reason but it looks like they still have the same wiring layout. I suppose you could hook up the resistor anywhere on the wire that comes from the solenoid on the transmission, the hardest part may be just finding it elsewhere lol. Another thing to be sure to check once you get it all running is your idle speed. I don't have a way to measure it so I just went by the sound of the engine. When I went for a test drive it would not up shift at all and I was worried I burned something up. After overthinking it way too much I finally turned down the idle and it worked perfectly after that. I do have a cheap timing light so I was about to roughly set the timing to probably 5 to 10 degrees BTDC. The factory specs state it should be right at 0 but I've read in numerous other posts that with today's better gas you can advance the timing and get a little better performance out of it.

 

Hope these pictures help and don't hesitate to ask if you have any more questions!

 

Edit-I just remembered after looking at theses pictures: be sure you get plug wires with some sort of radio suppression! The normal OEM wires are not shielded which doesn't matter with points, but with this electronic ignition it can cause interference.

 

Also on that last picture the labeling I put may be confusing. Where it says "Interrupt to ignition" doesn't mean that's the actual ignition wire. It's just the wire that goes to the coil. Your junction block isn't covered in paint like mine is so you can see the top right where it says "IGN" is that wire.

Winds,
Thanks friend... I really appreiate the photos.  I also noticed your supression plug wires.  I just re-did my plug wires with the stock stranded copper core.  I knew solid core was an issue but I guess I would need to update those plug wires also prior.  I am definitely learning a lot here.

[Stargrinder]

1 hour ago, keithb7 said:

A distributor does not need to be pulled/removed to change points, or the condenser. Nor file the points and set the dwell. There’s not much to it.
 

“Setting it and forgetting it” is not a common theme with these old cars. You’ll want to be under hood for multiple other reasons. Checking various things regularly. There is quite a long list of items to maintain and be checking. 

Keith... I need to learn the ways of the Zen Master.  I have not pulled a distributer before nor have I changed points (but I think the time has finally come).  I am curious how you would set the dwell with the distributor in.  I figured would would want to rotate the shaft so you can see how the gap opens and closes.  Again I am learning here and I am a sponge for knowledge.