Three point seat belt for the wife.

[48ply1stcar]

Finished installing a seat belt yesterday.  Is there any interest in showing the installation?

[DJK]

YES

[squirebill]

What DJK said

[Sniper]

I'd be interested in how you did it.  I put a pair in my 51 last year, but didn't document it.

[Sam Buchanan]

2 hours ago, 48ply1stcar said:

Finished installing a seat belt yesterday.  Is there any interest in showing the installation?

 

 

Please do, am eager to see how you worked with the very limited space in the four-door.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Sam Buchanan

[48ply1stcar]

In addition to the seat belt, I bought extra hardware (Washers and B-pillar mount) from Seatbelts plus.

Although the pillar plate could have welded or rivet to the pillar, I decided to put the plate inside the pillar.  The plate was too wide to fit right behind the metal so I had to decide between cutting the plate to make it narrow or mount it farther back inside the pillar on the ridges created by the shape of the pillar. Also, I tapped the holes for 1/4" 20 screws.

There is a hole that matches the light switch hole on the driver's side.  I only needed the longer cut on the left side.  I dropped a string and a screw from the top trim hole to the switch hole and tied the string to the plate and lifted it into place.  It was easier to use a longer bolt to hold the plat in place while securing the 1/4" screws.

I enlarged a hole used for mounting the trim to a 7/16" hole and drilled 1/4" holes fro the screws.  My trim is quite thick so I had to remove the backer board so the bolt would reach and I installed a 7/16" washer to ensure the mount move freely.

 

 

 

 

I mounted the retractor and the outside mount on either side of the body mount so the retractor sits on the edge of pillar and I wish I had installed the other mount closed to the seat.  I may or my not move it. 

 

 

I also opted for the 20" belt receiver.  not thrilled about the placement but the seat is slid all the way back so when I side it forward I think its going to be fine.

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by 48ply1stcar
grammer

[Eneto-55]

That is a really compact retractor.  (At least it appears so in the photo.)  I see the knobs on it - is that just to help it back in if necessary, or do you wheel it back in manually?

 

[48ply1stcar]

39 minutes ago, Eneto-55 said:

That is a really compact retractor.  (At least it appears so in the photo.)  I see the knobs on it - is that just to help it back in if necessary, or do you wheel it back in manually?

 

No, they didn't turn.  It retracts ok, and the locking mechcanism works well.  May I should do a panic stop and see how close the wife's head gets to the dash.  I could have mounted the retractor in front of the pillar, but I didn't want to drill though the body mount.

 

[Sam Buchanan]

I have the seat all the way back and don't want a retractor in the backseat floorboard blocking access through the door, haven't figured out how to make this work. A solution might be non-retractable shoulder belts but they are a bit unwieldy to stow. 

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by Sam Buchanan

[Eneto-55]

4 hours ago, 48ply1stcar said:

No, they didn't turn.  It retracts ok, and the locking mechcanism works well.  May I should do a panic stop and see how close the wife's head gets to the dash.  I could have mounted the retractor in front of the pillar, but I didn't want to drill though the body mount.

 

LOL....  Hope you wife doesn't see your post, or can take a joke well.

I like where you put the retractor, not out in the way of rear seat passengers.  Most of the guys who have put up pictures here have 2 doors, so the situation with the retractor is much different.  (Then it's *JUST* a matter of the rear seat passengers climbing in past the belt without hanging themselves.)

 

Have another question - about the last picture.  Is that under the seat, so that the other end of the seat belt is not visible from the rear seat area?

[Sniper]

Looks real similar to my installation, but I have a 2 door.  Nice job. 

[Eneto-55]

3 hours ago, Sam Buchanan said:

I have the seat all the way back and don't want a retractor in the backseat floorboard blocking access through the door, haven't figured out how to make this work. A solution might be non-retractable shoulder belts but they are a bit unwieldy to stow. 

 

I see now that his retractor doesn't fit between the seat frame & the B pillar the way I thought.  (I had 'misinterpreted' the photo, not recognizing that it was the seat shown in front of the retractor.

 

I will also want to be able to push the seat all of the way back, so have also thought of using a non-retracting belt. (Perhaps like what was in the 72 Dodge Coronet I had, which was a separate shoulder belt that snapped in on the main belt 'buckle'.  When not in use, the shoulder belt stored on clips attached above the door.)  Another (possibly crazy) idea I had was to install a second attachment point near the bottom of the B pillar (one of those where the belt just passes through, maybe with a sort of roller), then install the retractor inside the seat frame.  But I know that I would need to replace the stock seat tracks with something heavier, maybe from a minivan.  (I kept the seat tracks from a 93 Chrysler T&C for years, but in a moment of weakness of mind scrapped them before I thought of this, so couldn't even compare to see if that would work.)  I've put out this idea here before, with no responses, so I would really appreciate feedback as to whether anyone thinks it would work, and be safe.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Eneto-55

[48ply1stcar]

13 hours ago, Eneto-55 said:

Have another question - about the last picture.  Is that under the seat, so that the other end of the seat belt is not visible from the rear seat area?

 

The center belt mount is not visible from the rear seat. Maybe I should have removed the seat (again) and mounted it a farther back.  I am a little concern about the belt rubbing on the seat frame.  If it's a problem I can always buy another belt and move it. 

 

I wonder if anyone else is is concerned about those seats being secured by 8 1/4" bolts?

Edited September 3, 2020 by 48ply1stcar

[Eneto-55]

On 9/3/2020 at 6:50 AM, 48ply1stcar said:

 

The center belt mount is not visible from the rear seat. Maybe I should have removed the seat (again) and mounted it a farther back.  I am a little concern about the belt rubbing on the seat frame.  If it's a problem I can always buy another belt and move it. 

 

I wonder if anyone else is is concerned about those seats being secured by 8 1/4" bolts?

Yes.  That whole part of the seat frame would have to be rebuilt, if any part of the seat belt set up was fastened to it, and depended on the seat staying in place.  Do you think it would tear loose in a crash even if the seat belt is fastened only to the floor?  I hadn't really thought of it that way, but if any of the seat belt installation is fastened to any part of the seat frame in any way, I would definitely replace (or beef up) all of that structure.  My Dad installed seat belts in the 53 DeSoto my parents bought in 1960, but I do not remember how well that seat was secured to the floor.  (He had the seat belt bolts going through the floor - I remember that much from vacuuming in the back seat.)  

Edited August 30 by Eneto-55
spelling error

[48ply1stcar]

Eneto-55, Now I'm thinking I should put a seatbelt on the driver's side at least might keep the seat sationary in a crash even if i'm not using them.

[Frank Elder]

I’m thinking legally if you install one seatbelt in your grandfather’s rights car then you are legally obligated to install the driver side seat belt,  maybe I’m just blowing smoke........ If that is true and you install the driver side seat belt and you decide not to wear it you will be liable for a non-seatbelt compliance ticket. That much I do know.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Frank Elder

[Sam Buchanan]

14 hours ago, 48ply1stcar said:

Eneto-55, Now I'm thinking I should put a seatbelt on the driver's side at least might keep the seat sationary in a crash even if i'm not using them.

 

The seat won't go far......you'll be impaled between the seat and steering column......

I really wish my car had a shoulder harness for the driver....the lap belt won't keep me from being speared by the column.

 

By the way, I've never seen seatbelts secured with 1/4" bolts. All the belts kits I've had came with much larger hardware.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Sam Buchanan

[LazyK]

here is what I did

made a bracket that fit in the recess where the body mount bolt is and a longer body bolt. Figured it it tore out the body mount I had bigger problems.

when installed I lost maybe a 1/4 inch of travel in the seat. For the upper attachment point I used a hole in the body pillar just above the light switch. welded a nut to a plate that fit in the pillar and attached with a pop rivet to keep it from falling back down in the pillar until the shoulder pivot is installed. bolts are 70's mopar seatbelt bolts, which have a large flat head

[Eneto-55]

1 hour ago, Sam Buchanan said:

By the way, I've never seen seatbelts secured with 1/4" bolts. All the belts kits I've had came with much larger hardware.

 

We might not have been very clear in our references - this was about the eight 1/4" bolts that secure the stock P15 seat frame to the floor.  The question was as to whether these bolts would fail in a severe crash, allowing the seat to "crush" the driver and front passenger between the belts and the propelled weight of the seat at the time of impact.  I had only though a bit about this, focusing my main concern on the seal latching mechanism.  (For most things, any comparison between the components of vintage vehicles and new ones show the older materials to be heavier and stronger.  The seat latching or adjustment mechanism is an exception, because the modern seats were designed for use with seat belts, and the belts are generally fastened to the seat frame, so the strength of the latching mechanism has to be able to withstand the force of inertia produced at the time of impact.  Maybe this was just as important in the old times, since the older seats are probably heavier, but it doesn't seem to have been considered much.)

[Eneto-55]

11 hours ago, LazyK said:

here is what I did

made a bracket that fit in the recess where the body mount bolt is and a longer body bolt. Figured it it tore out the body mount I had bigger problems.

when installed I lost maybe a 1/4 inch of travel in the seat. For the upper attachment point I used a hole in the body pillar just above the light switch. welded a nut to a plate that fit in the pillar and attached with a pop rivet to keep it from falling back down in the pillar until the shoulder pivot is installed. bolts are 70's mopar seatbelt bolts, which have a large flat head

 

Are you saying that the seat belt attaching bolt is also the body mount bolt?  I don't know myself, but some have mentioned a concern that the body could tear loose from the frame, and in that case you do not want to be the thing that stops them from separating.  It seems to me that unless there is an awful lot of rust around the body mount area, this would be a very severe crash, so I don't know what to think about it.

 

A question about the plate you slid up inside the B pillar - What width and length were you able to get in there, or did you need to enlarge a hole someplace?  Thickness?

Edited September 5, 2020 by Eneto-55
correct grammar

[Sam Buchanan]

4 hours ago, Eneto-55 said:

 

We might not have been very clear in our references - this was about the eight 1/4" bolts that secure the stock P15 seat frame to the floor.  The question was as to whether these bolts would fail in a severe crash, allowing the seat to "crush" the driver and front passenger between the belts and the propelled weight of the seat at the time of impact.

 

Thank you, I missed the context of the statement about the 1/4" bolts.

 

I think a lot of our discussion about enhancing safety in these old cars is entirely speculative (and maybe futile?) since these structures weren't designed with safety in mind. Probably the most accurate prediction about a severe crash is that these cars will cave in like a Coke can with unfortunate outcomes for the occupants regardless of seatbelt design. The lap belts in my P15 are mostly a placebo since an F150 is barely going to slow down as it crushes the old Plymouth......

Edited September 4, 2020 by Sam Buchanan

[48ply1stcar]

Now I think I might move the belt retractor mount it though the body mount. Thanks Lazy K.

Edited September 4, 2020 by 48ply1stcar

[Young Ed]

6 hours ago, Sam Buchanan said:

 

 The lap belts in my P15 are mostly a placebo since an F150 is barely going to slow down as it crushes the old Plymouth......

As someone who had actually hit and f150 with his plymouth let me tell you she did more than barely slow down. My p15 got pretty squashed but the F150 spun almost 360 and ended up half a block down

[Sam Buchanan]

10 hours ago, LazyK said:

here is what I did

made a bracket that fit in the recess where the body mount bolt is and a longer body bolt. Figured it it tore out the body mount I had bigger problems.

when installed I lost maybe a 1/4 inch of travel in the seat.

 

 

 

Your '51 has more room to work with and probably a thicker/stronger pillar than my '48 with its suicide doors, . Really wish I could squeeze a retractor in there without impinging on the rear floor.

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by Sam Buchanan

[Frank Elder]

3 hours ago, 48ply1stcar said:

Now I think I might move the belt retractor mount it though the body mount. Thanks Lazy K.

Please don’t, if you hit somebody bad enough to separate the body from the frame and it happens, your body and the seatbelt will be the only thing holding the car body to the frame and I’m guessing you’ll be sliced in half you should never bought the seatbelts to the frame ever.