52 PLYMOUTH CRANBROOK RESTORATION - NEED ADVICE

[1952Cranbrook]

Hello all!

I have a 1952 Plymouth Cranbrook project I am working on, and need all the advice/tips I can get.

I bought this almost 3 years ago as a "beginner resto project", and I ended up encountering so many issues that I got discouraged and started to think it was an ill-fated attempt.

 

Long story short, I just found a flathead 6 in the area that the PO says was rebuilt somewhere around ~2-5k miles ago. I was able to get the engine on the frame, and fire it right up!

So now, I am looking for advice on what to check/verify before putting the engine back in? Currently, the body is off the frame, and I am just working with the engine. My thought is that if I'm gonna do any maintenance or repairs that I need to do it now before putting it back together. So what should I check? I need some guidance as I am honestly just a beginner who doesn't know too much. I would really appreciate some tips from you seasoned veterans.

 

Currently, the only issue I'm aware of is that it has a bit of an occasional sputter. I am unsure of what this might be from, but here is a link to a video of it running if you guys want to listen.

Also, I have a bunch of new engine parts(as I thought I was gonna be rebuilding the last engine), so if you have any suggestions on things to replace, I may already have the parts!

 

Thanks in advance!!

 

Here is a video of it running.

https://youtu.be/LOspeNQM8Ck

[Sniper]

You have a misfire, that's the putt sound you hear. 

 

It could be a loose/bad plug wire, make sure both the plug and the coil ends are firmly seated.

 

Could be a plug going bad.  Could be a vacuum leak.

 

As for the engine in general, I'd verify oil pressure, hot and cold.  Make sure it doesn't overheat.  Other than that I'd run it.

[Go Fleiter]

Sniper´s hint may be rigtht!

If not: check the gas lines too.

And change that wobbeling pulley, it will overly  wear the crankshaft bearings!

Good Project! You will do it!!

Greetings from Düsseldorf!

Go

[Booger]

get down which your bad self. I admire you gettin after it!

yeah harmonica balancer has issues

[dpollo]

The engine  sounds just fine but judging from the carb and manifold, water upper outlet as well as the speedo drive, and the wide belt front pulley, it is from a pre war car maybe as early as 1940 ( P10 )  which is only 84 hp. (201 cubic inches)

The engine number is at the front left corner above the generator

 

42 and later were 217s and rated at 95 hp while the 52 (P23) was rated at 97.   

The position of the speedo drive pictured is on the lower right.  In 52 it is upper left so you will need a longer cable   say from a 46-48

I would not spend a lot of money on this  engine but run it as is until you find a later block.   The front pulley from 51 to 56 uses a narrow belt which is easier to get than the older wide ones .    Plymouths generally did not use harmonic balancers. 

Edited March 14, 2020 by dpollo
clarity

[1952Cranbrook]

Thank you all for the input!

I am going to try to start isolating which cylinder that misfire is coming from.

I will look over the plugs/wires(though they are brand new) as @Sniper suggested.

 

@Go Fleiter Thank you! It's a bit overwhelming, but I am hopeful. I will look at the fuel lines and maybe even carb? And will look at swapping the harmonic balancer as you suggested. 

@michaelmarks697@yahoo.com Thank you! I need all the encouragement I can get! I am really no mechanic, but a total beginner. A lot of this seems way over my head, but I am learning a lot.

 

@dpollo Thanks for the input!

Yes, this engine is from a 46, plymouth business coupe(I believe thats what the PO said)

Why would you recommend getting rid of it?  I am just interested as this is the closest to ready engine I have found so far.

I have the old '52 engine that came out of it, but the valve guides and seats were totally shot. I am a totally newbie, and it seemed pretty expensive to have a machine shop do it, so I opted for a new engine.

 

Also, I have the old harmonic balancer from the old crankshaft, will that be swappable with my current one? 

 

I am currently just running it daily, to see if I see any gaskets that are failing so I can replace them now. Any other things I should look for? Any gaskets/parts that are a pain to replace with the engine in?

 

Thank you all so much for the help!!!!! I really appreciate it!

 

[50mech]

I've noticed on these that a lean condition ( especially from semi clogged jets) can sound like an ignition misfire too....of course a carb rebuild is pretty much always a good idea on anything that's sat a while.

 

Looks like your heat riser doesn't move and appears to be stuck in the heating position ( counterclockwise). You'll want to address that.

[DJK]

How about checking valve clearances?

[greg g]

First things, check points condition and gap, check dist cap for signs of cracking or carbon tracks, replace the plug wires with a set of universal six cylinder wires from Tractor Supply or farm and fleet, put in a set of new autolite 45 or 46 sparkplugs properly gapped.  Do a static timing procedure and set the dist for TDC. Assure all wires in dist are in God condition and clean and tight. Do a dry and wet compression check.  Start the engine do a vac test.  Compression should be 90 to 120psi, vacuum at 500 rpm idle should be steady at 21 inches. If it is a p15 engine it is a 97 up 217.8.  if your numbers are good and you have a steady operating temp of 170 plus or minus 10 degrees you should have a decent driving engine.  When you get it in the car you can do a vacuum gauge timing procedure to find optimum initial advance for your engine.

[Sniper]

I've watch all of this guy's videos on rebuilding the flathead 6 found in most of our rides.  Whether it's a 218 or 230 it applies.

 

This may be beyond your comfort level but the info is good and it will, at the least, give you enough knowledge to understand your machinist when he's telling what he's doing.

 

As for me, after watching this series I am going to tackle the valves guides and seats if they need doing.  Yeah, the tools I'll need to purchase will probably cost more than the machinist would charge for a valve job, but I'll still have the tools when I am done. 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Sniper
spelling

[dpollo]

if you read what I wrote in reply, I did not suggest you get rid of anything.  I wished only to caution you that a pre war 201 would not do much for you in performance .

If this engine is from a 46, it would do the job adequately but looking at the throttle linkage and the manifold , I suspect it is older than that.

[squirebill]

My hearing isn't what it used to be but it sounds to me like an erratic metallic "clack".  I would take off the fan belt and check all pulleys for wobble and end play, especially that crankshaft pulley/vibration damper.  You could start the engine at this point ,with no fan belt on it, and see if you still have the noise.  If you do, it's something internal to the engine.  If not, it is something belt driven.  To confirm, put the belt back on and see if the noise comes back.    My neighbor had a similar noise on his '65 Dodge Coronet and it turned out to be endplay in his power steering pump.  Just saying. Regards

[DJK]

I thought it sounded noisy compared to my 52 Cranbrook. 

[falconvan]

On 3/17/2020 at 4:17 PM, Sniper said:

I've watch all of this guy's videos on rebuilding the flathead 6 found in most of our rides.  Whether it's a 218 or 230 it applies.

 

This may be beyond your comfort level but the info is good and it will, at the least, give you enough knowledge to understand your machinist when he's telling what he's doing.

 

As for me, after watching this series I am going to tackle the valves guides and seats if they need doing.  Yeah, the tools I'll need to purchase will probably cost more than the machinist would charge for a valve job, but I'll still have the tools when I am done. 

 

 

These are great videos; I plan on giving my valve guides a shot, too.

[1952Cranbrook]

@50mech Interesting.. I will look into rebuilding the carb and see if that helps..

@DJK Do you think valve clearances could cause a misfire like that?

@greg gThank you so much for your detailed post! The points are new and I tried to set them to .020, but they are coming in at more like .024(my bad, I'll fix that). I'm assuming that wouldn't cause an issue though? Spark plugs are also new as well. I will look into doing a wet/dry compression check. Vacuum is steady at 21 inches except when is sputters, then the vacuum needle drops. I have been running it a lot recently and have found it difficult to get the temp above 170(I thought it was supposed to get higher than that?)

@Sniper Yeah! I watched his series too! I even bought a cheap valve cutter off ebay to try to fix up my other engine, but it didn't work very well and the valve guides look like they're shot as well. I would love to go as in-depth as he did, but I don't have the tools. ? Do you guys know if there is a way to replace guides and cut seats without expensive tools?

@dpolloOh ok! Sorry for the misunderstanding. Interesting... The engine number says "PII*20928I*. Which seems like you're right. I don't know exactly how to decode the engine numbers though.. 

 

@squirebill @DJK @Sniper @50mech I thought what you guys were saying was interesting so I thought I would take a look at the valve train..
I decided to open the valve covers and take a slow-motion video of the valves to see if I could see anything out of the ordinary. I am no mechanic but I didn't see anything wrong! What I thought was interesting though, was that in the slowmotion video, you can hear the misfire, and occasionally 2 misfires right next to each other. Now, I might be wrong, but because there seemed to be 2 misfires right after each other, too soon to be the same cylinder, my hypothesis is that the misfire is not unique to a specific cylinder but eradically affecting multiple cylinders? Here's the video if you guys want to check it out! (I thought it was pretty cool to watch.) 

 

Anyways, I may be reading into it too much, but would be interested in what you guys think?

[Sniper]

they make a Pneumatic Valve Guide Driver that uses an air hammer to remove and install the guides. about $27 if you already have the hammer and compressor.  If you don't have an air hammer they cost about $27 too.  You will most likely need a reamer too, $50.  So, $100 in tools to do the guides.

 

Then there is the valve job, more tools there. 

 

Listen to the misfires while watching number one cylinder intake lifter.  What does you spark plug wire routing look like?

 

Edited March 28, 2020 by Sniper

[Sam Buchanan]

What I noticed in the slow-mo is how freely the #1 lifters were spinning and the others didn't appear to be turning. Wonder if the valve lash is too loose on #1. But I have no idea if this has anything to do with the glitch....

Edited March 29, 2020 by Sam Buchanan

[dpollo]

P11 is  1941    I believe that is the last year for the 201.

[50mech]

Heat riser is definitely stuck on heating. That could lean it out.

Does the misfire appear after a warm up or immediately? Is it worse when warm?

 

Best I can work out it sort of seems to be cylinders 1 and 5 and maybe occasionally one other. 1 and 5 are adjacent in firing order so possibly distributor play....

 

Could always try pulling wires and doing some 5 cylinder runs to see if you can pin it down to one or two cylinders or if you're correct that it's just erratic.

 

Use the vac guage at more than just idle....check a vacuum guage diagnoses chart....it can help narrow things down quite a bit especially about leaky or sticky valves and worn guides.

 

All in all I'm favoring a lean condition. Although the slightest issue with grounding can make your coil less consistent...what your voltage there?

Edited March 29, 2020 by 50mech

[Sam Buchanan]

Before going any deeper I would put a new rotor and distributor cap on it. A worn rotor might be wobbling around and randomly disrupting the ignition.

[JerseyHarold]

Could be a loose starter spring allowing the gear to slap the flywheel intermittently.  Do you have another starter you can swap in to test?