rings/smoke

[Don Jordan]

I have not figured out how to navigate around this forum so when I ask a question I'm not sure how to find the answers.  But this is important so I've got to give it a try.  I took the P15 on a trip to northern California (400 miles)  It ran perfect except for some strange electrical problem.  On the way home I noticed it was blowing white smoke.  About a quart every 100 miles.  Got home and did a compression check: 5 were between 85 - 90 one was 55.  All I can think about is rings.  I put several quarts of something (I don't remember) to free up the rings.  Nothing.  Before I take the head off are there any suggestions?  The engine has been rebuilt and probably has no more than 5,000 miles on it.  I get great pleasure from my cars and an equal portion of grief.

[Plymouthy Adams]

at 5000 miles and this amount of oil consumption...I think a visit to the builder is in order....

[knuckleharley]

3 hours ago, Don Jordan said:

   On the way home I noticed it was blowing white smoke.  About a quart every 100 miles.  Got home and did a compression check: 5 were between 85 - 90 one was 55.  All I can think about is rings.  I put several quarts of something (I don't remember) to free up the rings.  Nothing.  Before I take the head off are there any suggestions?  The engine has been rebuilt and probably has no more than 5,000 miles on it.  I get great pleasure from my cars and an equal portion of grief.

White smoke means water getting into the cylinder to me. Did it run hot? Was it a quart of water or a quart of oil every 100 miles?

[Don Jordan]

No - it did not run hot.  It smokes at idle, going down hill, shifting gears.  If it was water wouldn't it show up on the dip stick?

thanks

[dpollo]

given the compression figures and the white smoke I greatly fear that your  engine has had a leaky head gasket which has allowed antifreeze into the cylinders and this has prematurely worn out the rings.  Head and pan off.... out with the pistons and the truth will be revealed.

[Don Jordan]

thank you I will keep you posted.  It was 106° in my garage today.  Not the best time for a tear down - but when is?

[knuckleharley]

6 hours ago, Don Jordan said:

No - it did not run hot.  It smokes at idle, going down hill, shifting gears.  If it was water wouldn't it show up on the dip stick?

thanks

Not always.

White smoke=water.

Blue/black smoke=oil

[48ply1stcar]

Hopefully, you're only looking at a bad head gasket at that cylinder.  

[allbizz49]

White smoke is oil, steam is water. Blue is oil too. Black is usually fuel, too rich. 

[keithb7]

I am just curious: 85-90 psi on the remaining cylinders. What is normal for that engine? Thx.

[knuckleharley]

29 minutes ago, allbizz49 said:

White smoke is oil, steam is water.

Steam is white.

All the oil I have seen burning is blue,or black. The black is mostly carbon and is probably more related to a weak ignition than worn rings. I have dribbled water down carbs on running engines,and if you never done this,you might  be surprised at all the carbon that gets blown out the tailpipe,and all the "new" power  you suddenly find. I had a friend with a restored WW-2 jeep that would only pull the hill going to his house at 35 MPH until we did this,and after that he could pull it at close to 45 MPH. I don't know if you have ever ridden in or drove a WW-2 Jeep,but 45 MPH qualifies as "Scary fast" in one of those things. Horrible brakes,quick steering,and short wheelbase. They were meant to crawl in the mud or cruise at 35 MPH in a convoy.

[Plymouthy Adams]

13 hours ago, Don Jordan said:

I have not figured out how to navigate around this forum so when I ask a question I'm not sure how to find the answers.  But this is important so I've got to give it a try.  I took the P15 on a trip to northern California (400 miles)  It ran perfect except for some strange electrical problem.  On the way home I noticed it was blowing white smoke.  About a quart every 100 miles.  Got home and did a compression check: 5 were between 85 - 90 one was 55.  All I can think about is rings.  I put several quarts of something (I don't remember) to free up the rings.  Nothing.  Before I take the head off are there any suggestions?  The engine has been rebuilt and probably has no more than 5,000 miles on it.  I get great pleasure from my cars and an equal portion of grief.

reading post one again, you stated adding numerous quarts of a additive to free rings.......question, when adding this product, was the engine oil at a quart low condition at the time?  And if you added this product back to back, did it not occur to you that you may have been diluting the oil to less than useful to serve it lubrication purpose.   Just trying to understand events leading to the current state....

[Reg Evans]

I'm also wondering why an engine with only 5k on the rebuild would need it's rings freed up.  Did it sit for a looooong time ?

[greg g]

Perhaps the installer did not vary the end gaps on the new rings.  Compression should be 100 to 120 range or even a bit higher on a fresh engine.  Also wonder if the head got properly torqued and retorqued after the initial heat cycle.  Typical head gasket failures in these engines are dry failures, no coolant involved, as the gasket fails between paired cylinders.  Was the car running OK except for the smoke?

[Don Jordan]

good questions.  I'm going to start Monday and pull the head - that should clear up something.

re: compression - I think I've seen it to be around 100 lbs.  I was not unhappy with 90 lbs.,

re: the car sitting - it did sit throughout the winter.  that does trouble me.  I've got 2 cars and I've got trouble keeping them both on the road.

re: additive - it's called Rislone - I put it in when the car was a quart low and then drove around.

It's always something.  Makes for good stories but it's annoying when it happens to you.

[knuckleharley]

I know Rislone has been around longer than I have,but I have never used it or personally know anyone that has. Growing up I was always told the thing to do to free up stuck rings was to pour some Marvel Mystery Oil down the carb while you revved it up high enough to keep it from choking off. Do NOT try this with the car in the garage!

If you had valves sticking,pour a quart in your crankcase when it got a quart low.

I grew up poor and couldn't afford that high-priced stuff,so I used the cheapest ATF I could find,and even poured some in the gas tank to "slick up" the gas a little. Not sure the quart or two of ATF I poured in the gas tanks was enough to make any difference,but I was always told it would when I was a kid.

It has been several years since I was a kid,so I suspect there is some sort of Super Slick Additive out there you can add to the gas tank these days that even keeps your tires from losing pressure,but I know nothing about it. Still poor and still going to stick with ATF.

Edited July 15, 2017 by knuckleharley

[Plymouthy Adams]

Rislone is a very good product by Schaffer....it is the only product I would use or recommend.  BUT one must be able to read and follow instructions on the product label.  It is the best upper cylinder lubricant and about the only product that I know that will free up hydraulic lifters almost immediately on reaching operational temperatures.  Many engines that are not often over the road or see extended highway use can benefit from this product as the odds of varnish or other sludge build up will cause lifter problems.    Probably the only product I do not view as snakeoil.  Again, as with any product common sense should prevail and not over dilute your lubrication system.

[dpollo]

Three of the head bolts go into the intake ports in line with the manifold.  I serviced one engine that was drinking up its coolant  but before tearing into it I put thread sealer on these three bolts and a can of stop leak in the rad.   Re tightened the head bolts and sent it out.  It still runs well and no more  coolant loss.  You have nothing to lose by trying this first.

 

[ptwothree]

Rislone freed up an intake valve stuck open....Engine sat around for a long time after a rebuild. Would toss gas and backfire thru the carb on acceleration..  Poured a half qt thru the carb at fast idle.  Choked the engine till it quit running with the last inch or so in the can.  Let it soak in overnite.  Fired it up the next day and it was cured.  Ran really well after that.  That was 51 yrs ago.  The EPA types would object today as it gets pretty smokey for the first five minutes or so!

[Don Jordan]

I wrote earlier about smoke and oil usage.  I would like to thank you all for your  comments.  I took the pan and head off, pulled out the offensive piston and found about 1/3 of the bottom ring was missing.  After inspection I found that one of the clips that holds the wrist pin in was gone.  I have no idea where.  I haven't looked at the cylinder wall yet - I'm afraid.

Questions: the shop that rebuilt my engine can get me 6 sets of rings.  Anyone know where I can get just one set?

I need to find a single piston - 60 over

The engine can't have more than 5,000 miles on it - since it's apart what are your thoughts about pulling all the pistons to check - or would that be over kill?

thanks

[Don Coatney]

Usually shops that rebuild engines offer what is known as a warranty. That means they insure that the engine will run without catastrophic failure for a given amount of time or a given number of miles. Did the shop you paid to do the rebuild offer such a warranty? Have you contacted them?

Also, this is the second such oil ring failure that has been posted on this forum in the past month. Both pistons and rings are from California. Makes me wonder if there is a serial ring killer on the loose or if there are a bunch of defective rings being sold.

Suggest you contact forum member Reg Evans and compare notes.

Also it would be nice if a moderator could combine this thread with your smoke and oil usage thread so as to not leave unanswered questions on both threads as they are about the same issue.

[Reg Evans]

Don,

Check out my thread with very similar details.  I ordered a complete set of pistons, rings,and wrist pins.  .060 overbore.  I'm going to install a new piston in #1 hole only.  If this doesn't hold up I will rebuild the original 42 Dodge 230 engine I saved...not this 48 Dodge  230 engine.  I might be able to help you out with your piston need.

 

[medium_jon]

4 hours ago, Don Coatney said:

Makes me wonder if there is a serial ring killer on the loose

Too funny @Don Coatney

[Don Jordan]

okay let's put this whole thing to rest.  Pulled the head and pan off.  Took out the piston.  The clip that's over the wrist pin (sir clip - don't know how to spell it) came loose, best I can figure it went up and broke the rings.  The constant wearing cut a hole in the cylinder wall.  Now I'm screwed.  I called about putting a sleeve in it.  The old school machinist won't be back till Monday.  I'm retired and thought I was done throwing money in this beast.  It actually runs pretty good with just 5 cylinders.  I'm almost tempted to put a 283 in it and call it a day.  You know when people say smile things could always be worse.  So I smiled and sure enough things got worse. 

[Don Coatney]

Good analysis but brings up the question of why the cir-clip for the wrist pin failed? The cir-clip is spring loaded and is deigned to fit tightly into a grove in the piston when installed correctly. Who installed it? You or the re-builder?  If the re-builder the warranty issue I mentioned earlier comes into play. I have personally never seen a failure of this cir-clip if installed correctly.