bamfordsgarage Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 Hello all — forum members following our recent trip to the north in my '47 D25 (http://p15-d24.com/topic/35527-northern-forts-tour-by-d25/page-2 Particularly post #30) may recall the car was sidelined in the Northwest Territories with various ailments including what we thought was a broken starter. Turns out the starter was OK and what caused it to appear to dead-short out was binding against a loose ring gear. We had ruled out seized/stuck mechanicals because the engine would turn over easily when pushing the car. But when the starter was powered up it would either do nothing except draw full juice, or make a slight motion then stall and draw full juice. So I got the starter back today from the auto-electric shop, where they had found nothing wrong except a need for new bushings, brushes and bendix. Nothing found that would cause a dead short and work I was glad to get done anyway for long-term reliability. Installed the rebuilt starter and same X$@*&@# problem again. Further investigation into the starter hole revealed a ring gear loose and flopping around. Photos below show the ring gear in two positions relative to the flywheel. I had this ring gear off a couple years ago during the engine rebuild in order to rotate it part way to move fresh teeth into the contact zones. I seem to recall it was a press fit onto the flywheel and I may also have pinned it back in place (roll pins into holes drilled in the junction of ring gear and flywheel) but have no photos of this for reference. At this point, it looks to me like the engine will have to come out to get access to the ring gear to reseat it on the flywheel. I am also thinking about a few tack welds to make sure it stays put. Or, has anyone had this problem before and managed to fix it in the car? Or if you've had this problem and pulled to engine to correct, was there something you did to secure the ring gear permanently? All suggestions welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 I have never had this problem but you can remove the flywheel without removing the engine. Normally the ring gear is a press fit with no pins nor welding. I wonder if your ring gear failure was related to the frigid temperature shrinking the flywheel???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamfordsgarage Posted June 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 Thanks Don, that sounds encouraging — if only the driveshaft and transmission have to come out that will be a big plus. From what you say, the flywheel can be unbolted and slid down and out. If I'd thought this through before posting I expect that's the procedure when refacing the flywheel during a clutch overhaul. It was probably something to do with cold weather. The folks we were staying with were very energy conscious and asked me not to plug the car in (oil pan and water heaters) overnight — I plugged it in early in the AM and tried starting it maybe 1-1/2 hours later, not really long enough to get things warm enough to turn easily. So maybe a bit of flywheel shrinkage added to thick oil resistance caused the starter to dislodge the ring gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 At least on my '33, you can remove the flywheel with the engine in the car, I imagine it would be on later cars too as it is something that would be done on a major clutch repair job. Interesting thought about the cold temperatures possibly affecting the press fit of the ring gear. Seems conceivable, but then leaves the question about how to deal with it on future visits to the frigid north. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andydodge Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 How loose is the ringgear?......if you know some one with a hoist and mig welder it might be possible to lift the car, remove the clutch inspection cover and use some G clamps to somehow pull the ringgear back hard onto the flywheel, moving the flywheel around a few inches at a time and eventually have it pressed hard against the flywheel again, then find someone with a MIG and run a few tacks at the ringear/flywheel interface(big word huh.....lol?) and keep turning the flywheel around till the gears edge is welded in enough places ...............now of course I'm glad that its you doing this.......lol...........and these past few dozen words are only a suggestion.......lol......feel free to tell me where my suggestion maybe placed...............lol.........I don't envy you, I have never heard of this happening and would be surprised if the cold temp would have been the cause but..........truly my best wishes go with you, as others have said the flywheel removal is basically a clutch job anyway.......interesting.........regards, andyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 Suggest you read the thread linked below prior to starting your project. It would be wise to mark the flywheel crankshaft orientation before removing the flywheel. http://p15-d24.com/topic/36142-flywheel-bolt-interference/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfsup123 Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 The correct way to fix this is to heat the ring gear with a torch and reinstall it , make sure it is in good shape though, no sense in reinstalling a bad ring gear, afterwards a few tacks with a mig or arc welder at opposite sides should hold it in place untill you need to grind off the welds to replace it in the future. most of those old ring gears were normally heated cherry red when assembled and as it cooled it contracted hence "press fit" , It would be advisable to actually remove the flywheel when doing this that way you can make sure the gear it is seated correctly and fully on the flywheel, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 If the ring gear is welded to the flywheel I recommend re-balancing the flywheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 unless the ring gear cracked..it freewheeling on the flywheel may well have damaged the flywheel and prevent normal replacement of the ring gear as designed at the factory...Spot welding or drilling and dowelling with a bit of peening could be effectual...the drilling depth can be controlled..the length of the dowel controlled, the indexing precise thus the balance question a lesser issue...but with Don I agree..spot welding could cause a bit of balance issue..and then again if indexed, and good control of heat and spotting say with a TIG..you may also get by without a real need for balance.. actually these old flywheels are not that hard to come by...with good ring gear and clutch surface...just more food for thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 During my rebuild I had my ring gear flipped to get new wear surfaces engaging with the starter. The machine shop put the fly wheel in a chest freeser, and the ring gear in what looked like a pizza oven. Fly wheel cold, ring gear hot, slipped the fly wheel into the gear on a flat surface, let nature take its course ambient wise, done. But as said if the gear was turning on the flywheel you might need to address the wear issue as the dimensions might have changed enough to prevent a proper fitment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamfordsgarage Posted June 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 Thanks everyone, for your comments and suggestions. I don't remember if I flipped or simply rotated the ring gear to get better teeth into the active zones, but I do recall heating the gear for a few minutes on top of my garage space heater while the flywheel sat outside in the snow. Friend Jerry postulated that perhaps the ring gear broke under the strain, which would be OK as I have another on a spare engine. The way it rattles around on the flywheel he could be right. There should be no flywheel-to-ring-gear wear as I'll bet that engine has not turned two revolutions since the failure. Good point about post-welding balance — if we do tack the gear to the flywheel it will be evenly-spaced (say, every 90° or 120°) to minimize any imbalance. I'll start the repair tomorrow so will know what's what fairly soon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ194950 Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 Some ring gears cannot be flipped front to back. Most only have one inner dia. edge with a tapered inside edge which is required to make sure the side facing the flywheel perfectly flat when properly installed. Some do have both sides with the inner taper, but most newer (than our cars) do not. Yours may or may not. Perhaps it was not totally set flat and had so it had runout that eventually caught up with you on a harder than usual restart?? I've installed many ring gears on many motors sizes and gas and diesel and very usual procedure was with flywheel removed and on a bench, ring gear was held with locking pliers near the edge and slowly heated with a good size welding tip or a small rosebud tip around and around until it would Drop over unto the flywheel with no pressure applied. Then pliers removed and triple checked to make sure of a flat contact tight against the flywheel and left to cool on it's own. Of course with the taped inner edge against to flywheel. Best to ya, Time to hit the road again? DJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamfordsgarage Posted June 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 So whaddya all think... Contact cement be enough or should I go with Crazy Glue? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted June 22, 2014 Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 lay it outside and let some moose whiz on it..it will rust into position in no time flat...seriously though, you extent of repairs now will dictate the MTBF 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted June 22, 2014 Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 Duct tape for sure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andydodge Posted June 22, 2014 Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 When you originally said it was loose and flopping you REALLY meant loose and flopping..........lol.......that's a prizewinner for sure there........Don's usually on the money so I'd get some high tensile duct tape and your home & hosed.......lol............andyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted June 22, 2014 Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 JBWeld, and pop rivets good to go. Pull the wheel, get your donor flywheel machined, install and good to go another several miles.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamfordsgarage Posted June 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 We had expected to replace the ring gear with the one from my low-mileage parts car engine, but after discovering the flywheel rim lip was cracked in two places (photo 1 shows one), the decision was make to replace the entire flywheel and ring gear assembly with that from the parts car. Not only was that ring gear in one piece and firmly anchored, the teeth are in much better condition (photo 2). The rebuilt starter spun the engine over splendidly and it was on to the compression test. We had suspected a bad head gasket, possibly toward the rear of the engine based on the behaviour of the temperature gauge the last day it was running. As expected, #6 was a very low at 30 psi, which did not come up after oiling the cylinder and jived nicely with the very gunky #6 spark plug. Cylinder #5 was just fine however, so could there be a gasket failure to the water jacket and not to the adjoining cylinder? When the head was removed, the gasket looked just fine and there was no sign of leakage on the block or head. Upon scraping an aberration in the cylinder head carbon, I couldn't believe my eyes. The screwdriver went right through the combustion chamber into the water jacket! Further cleaning and investigation revealed a neat hole just over 3/16" diameter and 1/2"+ long, right through the combustion chamber into the water jacket, and located directly below a brass plug screwed into a cast boss in the head. What is this all about? My parts car engine has that same boss and plug, and after looking at the Engine Pictures thread, I see it on Fargos-Go-Far's '55 Fargo 251, Dodgeb4ya's Plymouth 230 and Don Coatney's Spitfire head and others. So clearly this is a common feature, but... — What is the purpose of the boss and plug? — Why is mine drilled right through to the combustion chamber? Manufacturing boo-boo or...? — How was my hole plugged and what happened to that plug? and finally — Is there any reason I shouldn't just tap the hole, run in a long set screw, peen up each end and call it good? Inquiring minds want to know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 The reason for the plug above the #6 piston is ease of finding top dead center. This hole should not be in the head water jacket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyHarold Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 The plugged hole in the head is for static engine timing. You remove the plug, then put a straight piece of metal down so it rides on top of #6 piston so you can find TDC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andydodge Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Recheck that the "hole" you have offers access to the water, I don't think it does.............my understanding is that its actually in the centre of a casting boss that is plugged at the top or outside by that brass plug and offers the ability to check the TDC mark when timing the engine.......you remove the plug, insert a piece of welding rod, 15-18" long and gently turn the engine..........the welding rod will sit on the top of the piston and as the engine rotates the welding rod will move up & down indicating TDC..............btw........I reckon that flywheel & ringgear will make a great piece of garage art......lol....................andyd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Amen Andy -flywheel clock here you come!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 As to your lack of compression on #6 and over heating issue. Did you by chance see any bubbling in the radiator with the engine running and cap removed? Did you inspect the top of the piston for any holes? Was there any cross contamination of water in the oil? Is it possible that internally a chunk of your head froze off and fell on top of the piston and or simply fell off and allowed coolant to access the cylinder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyHarold Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 If there is a head gasket leak near #6, the piston top would have a 'steam-cleaned' look to it, as compared to the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveplym Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 You probably would have had a noticeable engine misfire. When i had a head gasket failure between 5 and 6 it missed badly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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