Diagnose This

[HanksB3B]

Guys I need some help, 

 

Even though I live in LA and it’s supposed to reach 85 this Wednesday, I fear that today was my last ride for the winter.  Engine Trouble.  A few weeks ago my truck was not running right.  I discovered that the carburetor had become fouled because I was running with no fuel line filter.  Teflon tape bits had worked its way into carburetor and clogged the idle orifice tube the last part down in this picture. (you can see the white stuff)

 

 

Read my lips: “Do not use Teflon tape for fuel line connections”. (and don’t run without an in-line filter)

 

During the initial startup of a rebuilt spare carburetor the engine over-revved for about 10-15 seconds before I could shut it off.  I may be over analyzing but I think I did some engine damage at that point.

 

Ever since that time I’ve noticed a loss of power as if the truck was running on 5 cylinders.  It seemed for lack of a better description to be “chugging”.  I thought about the timing being too retarded or maybe a loose ignition wire or a fouled plug.  (wishful thinking).

 

Yesterday my wife’s long lost friend Susan fell in love with my truck so of course we pretty much stuffed ourselves into the truck and went for a 10 mile ride down to the beach. Under load the power loss seemed to become progressively worse during the ride and after running up a long incline I heard a distinct knocking noise. I was very thankful to roll into the parking space.

 

The truck will start and run easily as if nothing is the matter, but I know better.  Now what to do that is the question.  I guess I’ll look to see if my oil looks like a milkshake that would be a blown head gasket,  I guess it could be a burnt valve, but somehow I suspect piston rings.  I guess a compression test would be the best indicator of that possibility.

 

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Hank   (I'm not really mad but there isn't a down in the dumps icon)

Edited October 14, 2013 by HanksB3B

[NiftyFifty]

I think you answered your own question, there is a lot more wrong then a minor issue and the only option is to start with the basic checks, oil, antifreeze, compression ( cold and hot) and drain that oil too even if it isn't milky, drain into a clean pan and check for excessive filings or worst scenario chunks.

Definitely no more driving until you find the real issue, your only doing more damage.

And last... Please don't use that font again... It's horrible to read

[41/53dodges]

I have to agree here, soundss like something really got hurt. At least it doesn't sound like a thrown rod or something along those lines, that would be significantly more obvious I would think.

[Jeff Balazs]

Oh Hank.....sorry to hear this.

I am wondering if maybe you broke a valve spring? Seems to me this would be more likely an explaination than a blown head gasket. It could explain the loss of power and the noise. If you can get your hands on a stethescope you would be able to pinpoint the source of the noise fairly easily. You don't mention if it was running hot.....it probably would have if the head gasket was blown.

 

This would definitely show up with a compression test and probably be isolated very specifically to one cylinder. In other words a dramatically different reading on one cylinder.

 

Jeff

[Dave72dt]

check your oil and coolant level first.   Then crack the drain plug loose enough to get a few drips out of it.  Any coolant should have settled over night and would be the first to come out..  Just oil, then do your compression test.  If that checks out, drop the pan and start checking brgs.  You could pull the tappet covers and check for broken springs too.  A burnt valve shouldn't make any knocking noises.  A scored or broken piston, wrist pin bushing or brg going out will.

 

Sorry to hear the bad news.

[MBF]

I hope all turns out well.  Mike

Edited October 14, 2013 by MBFowler

[RodFru2u]

Hank,

 

   Sorry to hear of your engine problems and noise. Sounds like your plan to check the oil and doing  a compression test are in order to narrow the problem causes. Hopefully you won't have to pull the engine and tear it down to do a major repair.

[greg g]

a compression test and perhaps a vacuum gauge reading if you want to run it long enough to take one, would point in a direction.  The over rev condition may have damaged the head gasket between a pair of cylinders.  That would have no effect on coolant or oil, but cylinders swapping compression will cause a loss of power.  A knock might indicate a bad bearing but you did not mention a lose of oil pressure that usually goes along with that symptom, 

[Fernando Mendes]

Hank,Check first all the idle circuit(orifices) and all power circuit(springs).I was fighting four weeks ago with my fuel pump and carburetor(not Carter).It was without power to climb a long incline too.Now I solved the problem.Forget the great problems.First the simple,ok.Good luck.

[Plymouthy Adams]

there are as many things that can be bad as there are components within the engine...serious over rev on a older engine can cause rings to hit the upper cylinder wear groves and crack rings/piston lands also..

 

but..the first thing I would want to rule out and is actually a first result of over rev..carbon breaking loose and knocking...suggestion you do a upper cylinder cleaning..I prefer water induction but you do your own research and make the call if of if not you want to do this...

 

A series of proper test as some of the mentioned above is the best way to analyze..proving what is right is often the best way to find what is wrong...this way you have no guessing....

[ggdad1951]

YIKES!  Sorry man!

[Don Coatney]

Use of teflon tape dope on tapered pipe threads is not a problem if installed correctly. Use of teflon tape dope on flared fittings is not required.

 

Did you remove and clean/inspect all spark plugs when you first noticed the miss fire? With the oil fill cap removed is there a lot of visible blow-by? Any popping back through the carbuerator? As has been mentioned suggest you do the basic checks and report the results.

[HanksB3B]

Geez,

 

I hardly finished sweeping the front porch and already I've got a bunch of good advice. What a bunch of guys ! Tonight I'm hoping to make a priority list based on these and hopefully a few more insights.  

 

The good news:

(1) I've been meaning to drop the oil pan to fix the notorious  "dipstick to oil pan leak"  (Be Forewarned of this if you are rebuilding your truck for the first time), then I need to re-do the oil pan gaskets. I'm the guy that Felpro instructions with photographs were written for ( I didn't bother to read the instructions and trimmed the cork roundies flush)

 

(2) I have 100 mile AAA towing.

 

(3) With all the help, We'll figure out what it is and form a plan of attack.

 

Thanks,

 

hank 

Edited October 14, 2013 by HanksB3B

[48Dodger]

Full tune up first.....bring everything to square one, if all goes well, power tune the carb/ignition for optium vacum and timing. I always double check the last thing I rebuilt or replaced. With the egine running, do the valve lash for the best results.

 

The carb can "make" you believe other things are wrong with the truck by not fully atomizing the fuel or pulling the right vacum.

 

 

48D

[Fernando Mendes]

Change the condenser.

[NiftyFifty]

Honestly, I wouldn't start throwing parts at an issue that from your description seems a lot more major then throwing plugs and cap and rotor at it. Start with your initial thoughts, compression,oil,antifreeze. Running it trying to "tune" it could be causing further damage. I just hope you didn't bend a valve on that over rev or even worse a rod.

[HanksB3B]

Thanks everyone for your condolences, pity and advice.

 

4mula-dlx

I think you answered your own question, there is a lot more wrong then a minor issue and the only option is to start with the basic checks, oil, antifreeze, compression ( cold and hot) and drain that oil too even if it isn't milky, drain into a clean pan and check for excessive filings or worst scenario chunks. Definitely no more driving until you find the real issue, your only doing more damage. And last... Please don't use that font again... It's horrible to read  

1. No more driving but I might have to move the truck under it’s own power about 75 feet into the parking place I’m going to work on it in.
2. Basic Checks:
   1. Oil, Coolant, Compression Check, Drop the Oil Pan and look for rings, Remove the valve covers and get a look at the value springs.  

41/53dodges
I have to agree here, sounds like something really got hurt. At least it doesn't sound like a thrown rod or something along those lines, that would be significantly more obvious I would think.

 

Not a thrown rod the engine starts and runs fairly smooth but noticeably rougher than usual at idle.

 

Jeff Balazs

Oh Hank.....sorry to hear this. I am wondering if maybe you broke a valve spring? Seems to me this would be more likely an explanation than a blown head gasket. It could explain the loss of power and the noise. If you can get your hands on a stethoscope you would be able to pinpoint the source of the noise fairly easily. You don't mention if it was running hot.....it probably would have if the head gasket was blown.  This would definitely show up with a compression test and probably be isolated very specifically to one cylinder. In other words a dramatically different reading on one cylinder.

 

Jeff I like your thinking. I agree it’s most likely not a head gasket.  I went to see Ricardo (my engine builder) and chatted with him while he was boring a block he was re-sleeving.  He asked me if I knew how to adjust the valves and explained that if they are not seating there’s loss of power  AND there could be noise that becomes more prominent while driving uphill. 

Dave72dt

check your oil and coolant level first.   Then crack the drain plug loose enough to get a few drips out of it.  Any coolant should have settled over night and would be the first to come out..  Just oil, then do your compression test.  If that checks out, drop the pan and start checking brgs.  You could pull the tappet covers and check for broken springs too.  A burnt valve shouldn't make any knocking noises.  A scored or broken piston, wrist pin bushing or bearing going out will. Sorry to hear the bad news.

 

 

Sounds like you are talking from experience and to the point. 

MBFowler

I hope all turns out well.  Mike

Thanks Mike

 

RodFru2u

 Sorry to hear of your engine problems and noise. Sounds like your plan to check the oil and doing  a compression test are in order to narrow the problem causes. Hopefully you won't have to pull the engine and tear it down to do a major repair.

 

greg g

a compression test and perhaps a vacuum gauge reading if you want to run it long enough to take one, would point in a direction.  The over rev condition may have damaged the head gasket between a pair of cylinders.  That would have no effect on coolant or oil, but cylinders swapping compression will cause a loss of power.  A knock might indicate a bad bearing but you did not mention a lose of oil pressure that usually goes along with that symptom, 

That wouldn’t be fun I mean it’s fun but it’s also a lot of work.

 

Fernando Mendes

Hank,Check first all the idle circuit(orifices) and all power circuit(springs).I was fighting four weeks ago with my fuel pump and carburetor(not Carter).It was without power to climb a long incline too.Now I solved the problem.Forget the great problems.First the simple,ok. Change the condenser. Good Luck.

 

Thanks Fernando.  My fuel pump is putting out the required pressure, Points & Condenser are new,  Plugs looked fine the last time I looked so they may tell me which # piston is causing the problem (if it’s rings) maybe I’ll see uncombusted fuel build-up on that particular plug.

 

Plymouthy Adams

There are as many things that can be bad as there are components within the engine...serious over rev on a older engine can cause Rings To Hit The Upper Cylinder Wear Groves And Crack Rings/Piston Lands also..

 

That’s my guess too Plymouthy.  Ricardo can do this and the valves while the engine is in the truck.  But I’m really hoping the valves are just way out of tolerance.

 

but..the first thing I would want to rule out and is actually a first result of over rev..carbon breaking loose and knocking...suggestion you do a upper cylinder cleaning..I prefer water induction but you do your own research and make the call if of if not you want to do this...

 

That’s really interesting.  I’ll have to see if YouTube has anything on how to do an upper cylinder cleaning (or I could use a more detailed procedure  here).

 

ggdad1951

YIKES!  Sorry man!

Mark Thanks
 

Don Coatney

Use of teflon tape dope on tapered pipe threads is not a problem if installed correctly. Use of teflon tape dope on flared fittings is not required.

Now you tell me.

Did you remove and clean/inspect all spark plugs when you first noticed the miss fire? With the oil fill cap removed is there a lot of visible blow-by?

There was no miss fire just an over-rev. Don, I will try that provided I get agreement that I can start my engine and let it idle in place.

 

Any popping back through the carbuerator? As has been mentioned suggest you do the basic checks and report the results.

 

Not really and popping.  The original carburetor is stamped DTE-1.  I just rebuilt and am running a carburetor stamped CO1 E9G.  The truck has always felt a bit gas starved with the CO1 E9G. Both Carburetors look identical when sitting next to one another, but what I haven’t checked is the stamped number on the Main Metering Jet.  I will do so.  Can I just change the main metering jet if I find they are different?  A general question:  How much difference is there between Carter Ball & Ball carburetors they all seem pretty much the same at least appearance wise. Does anyone know of any Carter nomenclature that documents the difference between model numbers?  

 

48dodger

Full tune up first.....bring everything to square one, if all goes well, power tune the carb/ignition for optimum vacuum and timing. I always double check the last thing I rebuilt or replaced. With the egine running, do the valve lash for the best results. The carb can "make" you believe other things are wrong with the truck by not fully atomizing the fuel or pulling the right vacuum.

 

Tim this sounds like very good practice and it makes perfect sense but is it o.k. to run my engine at idle knowing there is some knocking (though it is not evident at idle)  I guess the best case scenario would be if part of the problem is the Carburetor and the valves are just out of adjustment. 

 

4mula-dlx

Honestly, I wouldn't start throwing parts at an issue that from your description seems a lot more major then throwing plugs and cap and rotor at it. Start with your initial thoughts, compression,oil,antifreeze. Running it trying to "tune" it could be causing further damage. I just hope you didn't bend a valve on that over rev or even worse a rod.

 

Me too !  I think I’ll start with what I can accomplish visually.  Can I check the compression without the engine running ?  Do you just remove all the plugs and turn it over with the key in the off position (need explaination)

 

Thanks everyone for your help I’ll be sure to keep you posted as I’m sure I’ll have more questions.

 

Hank 

Edited October 15, 2013 by HanksB3B

[greg g]

a compression test is done with the plugs out, and cranking the engine with the starter and getting the maximun reading for each cylinder.  A healthy engine should be in the 90 to 110 psi (cold and dry) per cylinder.  A single low cylinder could be related to rings and or valves.  A pair of low cylinders indicated a head gasket failure between the two cylinders.

[Jeff Balazs]

Hank;

If it were me I would start by doing a cold compression test. Since you just ran the truck it should be oiled up good enough to tell you if you have a bad valve or a blown head gasket. Hopefully it is one of these two possibilities which are fairly simple to fix. I would think a broken valve spring is a more likely scenario that a blown head gasket in this over rev situation.

 

I will keep my fingers crossed for you.

Jeff

 

ps;

Don't feel too bad.....these things happen. About a dozen years ago I was partially involved in the restoration of an amazing old British 2 stroke road racing motorcycle. This bike basically represented the last hurrah of the british motorcycle industry which up until that point had dominated the world market. The engine was highly tuned and had a 12.5 to 1 compression ratio. It took a very special piston which was as rare as hen's teeth. It took months to obtain one and have it shipped across the pond.

Now this engine was pretty unique.....a specially ported air cooled single cylinder fitted with two carbs. One that took care of about 75% of the power band and another that really only came into play at the top of the range. The cable operated linkage for this was particularly fussy. The first time we pop started this beast the rider blipped the throttle and guess what? It stuck WFO ......and of course it made like a grenade. Very disapointing to say the least. Now if you could find one of these engines.....it was worth about $12 K at the time. I am really glad it wasn't me that set those carbs up. Last I heard the bike is a static display over in England.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Jeff Balazs

[Fernando Mendes]

Thanks Fernando.  My fuel pump is putting out the required pressure, Points & Condenser are new,  Plugs looked fine the last time I looked so they may tell me which # piston is causing the problem (if it’s rings) maybe I’ll see uncombusted fuel build-up on that particular plug.

Hank,I had an experience in 2008 with my 1942 Willys Jeep that was in the exhaust valve #4 cylinder its valve tappet adjusting screw was increasing its clearence alone.Then the exhaust valve #4 could not open and the engine fault.I used a glue to solve the problem.

[NiftyFifty]

Just an FYI Hank, if you do a hot compression, be sure to oil the o-ring on your tester first before screwing it in, being sure not to get oil into the opening. Many a stuck tester to learn that tidbit of advice. You don't have to take all the plugs out, you can do it one at a time, the cyls are of course all separated so it won't matter

[HanksB3B]

Guys,

 

Tonight I plan to scan the Engine section of the Dodge Truck Manual. Please save me some time ! Does anyone know if this has been done and posted for download somewhere, or please PM me or just send to hankstruck@verizon.net. 

 

Thanks,

 

Hank 

Edited October 15, 2013 by HanksB3B

[Don Coatney]

Just an FYI Hank, if you do a hot compression, be sure to oil the o-ring on your tester first before screwing it in, being sure not to get oil into the opening. Many a stuck tester to learn that tidbit of advice. You don't have to take all the plugs out, you can do it one at a time, the cyls are of course all separated so it won't matter

It is true you dont have to remove all the spark plugs at the same time to do a compression check but it sure puts less load on the starter and makes the engine spin faster if you do,

 

[HanksB3B]

I think I got Lucky:

 

Compression test Results:

1. 100 psi
2. 110 psi
3. 115 psi (this was the only "wet" plug.  The other five were very consistent)
4. 110 psi
5. 110 psi
6. 110 psi

So now I will drop the oil pan (which needs a little fixing) and will remove the right side inner fender liner (you know I'll be watching Merle TV again on that one) and the valve covers and have a look.  Who knows I may yet become the poster child for 160 deg thermostat sludge. If so I'll video myself eating some of the sludge and post it on YouTube.  (If I can eat Vegemite, I should be able to handle this) 

 

 

Thanks for sending some second guesses,

 

Hank    (Hopefully, I think I have something to smile about)

 

So does this indicate a stuck valve, broken valve spring or something close that ?

Edited October 16, 2013 by HanksB3B

[Desotodav]

The compression test results look good Hank. Maybe it's not as bad an issue as once thought. Real men eat Vegemite!

You do realize that we're all waiting with baited breath for the solution to your engine woes?