Give Me A Brake..........

[ptwothree]

I'm about to finish up repairing the floors on my Cranny, now it's on to the brakes.  I have run across several different materials used for brake lines.  Stainless steel, copper alloy, and plain steel.  I'm kinda leaning toward the copper alloy but wanted some input from some of you that have been down this road.

 

I'm also thinking of using a master cyl from a '68 vw beetle with an extended pushrod for a dual curcuit brake system.  It has 4 outlets that point to the center.  The stoplight switch could be moved here. Also has provisions for a remote resevoir. Just not sure if the 3/4" bore would make the brakes too touchy (sensitive) on application.  What do you think........??

[P15-D24]

Stainless and you will never have to deal with it again. 

[TodFitch]

Stainless and you will never have to deal with it again. 

Copper-nickel alloy and you'll never have to deal with it again too.

[Plymouthy Adams]

CuNi        monel is the trade name I know this stuff as....very popular hardware we used in the repair/overhaul of submarines....tuff stuff...

[chopt50wgn]

If you use stainless you know that it will need a different flare than regular steel . It is also harder to bend without kinking as well.

I helped a buddy do his 40 Ford in SS . It came our great but it does take more time and money.

[ptwothree]

I've never used stainless or CuNi and wanted to get away from the corrosion prone plain steel lines.  Stainless, I understand, is a lot tougher to work than the other two. So I think copper it is! 

 

Now does anyone have input on using a 3/4" bore master.........??

[Young Ed]

Be aware you need an alloy. Do NOT use plain copper lines.

[Dave72dt]

Original size wheel cylinders will need a master with the same diameter as the original. master had.  You need to push a similar amount of volume for all the wheel cylinders to work properly.  I doubt the 3/4 inch one will push enough.

[alsancle]

If you use stainless you know that it will need a different flare than regular steel . It is also harder to bend without kinking as well.

I helped a buddy do his 40 Ford in SS . It came our great but it does take more time and money.

 

 

This is the issue with stainless.  Indistructable but a pain to work with.

[55dodgec3]

I have used the steel tubing you get at auto parts stores, bend, flare, and fit them, then take em back off, scuff em with 220 paper and clear them. Looks good, and somewhat helps keeping the lines from rusting.

[Robert Horne]

I've never used stainless or CuNi and wanted to get away from the corrosion prone plain steel lines.  Stainless, I understand, is a lot tougher to work than the other two. So I think copper it is! 

 

Now does anyone have input on using a 3/4" bore master.........??

 

 

I used a small aluminum MC from an 80s small Dodge, I think was 3/4, in my 38 Coupe for 10 years.

It worked ok, with all four wheels stock.

 

I later used a 1 1/8 MC from a big Ford.     I can not tell the difference from the small Dodge MC......

[ptwothree]

I used a small aluminum MC from an 80s small Dodge, I think was 3/4, in my 38 Coupe for 10 years.

It worked ok, with all four wheels stock.

 

I later used a 1 1/8 MC from a big Ford.     I can not tell the difference from the small Dodge MC......

Well for now I've ordered a 7/8" bore master from rockauto for a '86 dodge colt vista $14.82 to my door. The shipping was 2 1/2 times the cost of the part!!  And 25' of sur&r 3/16" tubing from ntxt tools. $38.87 delivered. 

 

It will be a few weeks before I get to install this stuff, but I'll take some pics and return to this thread to report my progress...Thanks to all that chimed in!!

[ptwothree]

Well...that didn't work.  I'm trying to come up with a dual master cylinder with a remote fill for use with an otherwise stock brake system.  I've done several searches and can't seem to find a definitive answer. 

 

 I've decided that the stock brake pedal doesn't have enough stroke to fully engage the brakes.  It takes 3 to 4 strokes to get a pedal.  If I adjust the linkage/push rod so that the piston is starting farther into the cyl, then I have a pedal on the 1st stroke, but, the brakes won't release.  This is with the brakes adjusted with a slight drag.  Any suggestions???

[greg g]

steel lines on a limited use vehicle will probably ooutlast your stewardship of the vehicle.

[james curl]

You can make an adapter for the master cylinder with an arm installed between the pedal and the master cylinder to increase the stroke at the master cylinder.  Tim Adams has one that was built by one of the aftermarket companies installed in his business coupe.  It was for an automatic transmission car but the idea could be adapted to a standard shift car by mounting the master cylinder lower and further to the rear.

[Don Coatney]

Follow this link and read it all.

 

http://mopar.pairserver.com/p15d24ph_forum/topic/20422-krap/?hl=krap

[james curl]

The one on Tim Adams Dodge Coupe that I was talking about was made by ECI,   You can find them on the net and see the adapter for the automatic equipped vehicle with the arm between the pedal and the master cylinder that changes the ratio of the travel from the pedal to the master cylinder.

[ptwothree]

You can make an adapter for the master cylinder with an arm installed between the pedal and the master cylinder to increase the stroke at the master cylinder.  Tim Adams has one that was built by one of the aftermarket companies installed in his business coupe.  It was for an automatic transmission car but the idea could be adapted to a standard shift car by mounting the master cylinder lower and further to the rear.

I'd like to see a pic of this adapter.......

 

Follow this link and read it all.

 

http://mopar.pairserver.com/p15d24ph_forum/topic/20422-krap/?hl=krap

I did.  Thanks Don.  Glad to see you got your problems with the ECI set up fixed.  My problem is finding a remote fill dual m/c that will work with my drum/drum system and stock brake pedal.  Just about everything in the above link deals with disc/drum combos and kits with relocated pedals.  I'm prepping the stock single m/c with remote fill in case I can't find a solution to this.

 

Btb...The CuNI tubing works great!  Very easy  to bend and flare.

[Plymouthy Adams]

The one on Tim Adams Dodge Coupe that I was talking about was made by ECI,   You can find them on the net and see the adapter for the automatic equipped vehicle with the arm between the pedal and the master cylinder that changes the ratio of the travel from the pedal to the master cylinder.

 

 

James..quite the contrary..while the mount may have been made by ECI as it was on the car when I got it, it was inadequate and would not give me anywhere close to full pedal/piston travel..the bel-crank on my set up is home grown here in the shop the entire brake system when I got the car was hosed from day one....I now have brakes but am a bit more bald learning what all they did wrong and correcting it..

[james curl]

Sorry Tim, I mistakenly thought the picture you had posted at the time was the ECI unit as they are very similar in appearance.  When I tried to use a tandem  master cylinder on my then drum drum system I used a first generation Camero master cylinder.  The pedal did not make enough stroke with the existing pedal geometry and required two quick pumps to achieve a full pedal each time you wanted to stop.  I did not try the intermediate bell crank at that time because I did not want to invest the time into designing a new bracket to hold the bell crank and to calculate the required length and hole spacing to achieve full stroke with the pedal still above floor level.  I bought the ECI unit that Don used and I modified a spare brake pedal out put arm to increase the length to be the same as their kit is using the 1/2" bar stock.  The pedal ratio is less than ideal going by the design book for pedal ratios but as Don has not commented on the increased resistance to movement on his modified pedal it must not make a lot of difference in pedal feel.  I plan on installing mine and doing the T-5 change over sometime this spring when I feel better.

[Don Coatney]

Don has not commented on the increased resistance to movement on his modified pedal it must not make a lot of difference in pedal feel. 

 

Remember James I have a lot more bulk at work than you do  I have not noticed any increase in resistance but that does not mean you will not notice any.

[ptwothree]

Sorry Tim, I mistakenly thought the picture you had posted at the time was the ECI unit as they are very similar in appearance.  When I tried to use a tandem  master cylinder on my then drum drum system I used a first generation Camero master cylinder.  The pedal did not make enough stroke with the existing pedal geometry and required two quick pumps to achieve a full pedal each time you wanted to stop.  I did not try the intermediate bell crank at that time because I did not want to invest the time into designing a new bracket to hold the bell crank and to calculate the required length and hole spacing to achieve full stroke with the pedal still above floor level.  I bought the ECI unit that Don used and I modified a spare brake pedal out put arm to increase the length to be the same as their kit is using the 1/2" bar stock.  The pedal ratio is less than ideal going by the design book for pedal ratios but as Don has not commented on the increased resistance to movement on his modified pedal it must not make a lot of difference in pedal feel.  I plan on installing mine and doing the T-5 change over sometime this spring when I feel better.

James....If you modify the pedal to have an increased stroke, longer output arm, does the master cyl then have to be mounted lower then stock to keep the push rod geometry correct...or have you got that far along yet?

[james curl]

I am going to use the ECI bracket which mounts the master cylinder lower to begin with.  Most tandem master cylinders are too tall in the original location.  When I had the Camero drum/drum master cylinder I made a new plate with a formed bump in it to clear the top of the master cylinder.  I am using the master cylinder and bracket that I got from ECI, just not using the 1/2" x 1" bar stock extension that came with the kit.  I used Chevy pick up calipers on "Old Daddy's" kit with the original master cylinder at this time.

[Plymouthy Adams]

James....seems the norm in this stuff is one makes the product and 10 copy it for resale.   I just went through the few old receipts and order forms that came with the car.  The brake master bracket is not listed but there is a very costly list for a master brake install kit from Plydo...

 

The mount was well made and the Ford master bolts on without a hitch..but the pedal travel had to be increased by me for full piston travel..I would recommend that anyone making this change to inspect this aspect closely regardless of the retailer..

[ptwothree]

Thanks for the reminder Don......  I have given up (for now) on this duel curcuit project.  Lack of enough stroke from the stock pedal is the problem.  I don't want to use a conventional m/c with a integral reservoir as I wanted to get away from life with a hole in the floor. Trying to find a remote fill m/c for a drum/drum sys is tough.  The closest one I found is for a late sixties Beetle.  The bore is too small though. I could have lengthened the pedal and fabbed a new mount for the m/c to compensate for the longer pedal but my fabing, welding skills and lack of a heavy duty welder are beyond me for now.

 

So, in the meantime, I have reinstalled the stock m/c with a modified end plug in place of the cap, to support a remote reservoir.  Next, is try to adjust these brakes without the special tools.  I can see why conversions to disc brakes and a different rear end housing to lose the Lockheeds are done.....