Removing rod bearings from 218

[kencombs]

6 hours ago, Sam Buchanan said:

 

Ken, are you sure about your assessment of the bearings? They look pretty bad to me, lots of erosion of the surface if I am interpreting the photos correctly. The second photo seems to show bearing material wiped across the oil hole.

Yes, lots of acid erosion, but that isn't terrible as it's not from motion/wear, just static damage.   That is always isolated to the bearing, not the crank, at least in my experience.   The scratches don't appear to be through the wear layer, no bronze or brass showing.   I can't tell from the pic if the oil hole spot is oil, carbon, bearing material or ???  But, IME if the wear layer gets wiped it normally shows the underlying metal.

[kencombs]

3 hours ago, Dave72dt said:

If you're catching your fingernail on them, it's definitely time to replace them.  If you were to run them again, I think shortly you'd see them flaking material off and damaging the crank.  Bearings are way cheaper than regrind plus bearings.  You'll need to drop a main or two also.  Those will also probably look as bad.

Oh, definitely not reusable.   My assessment was relative to overall crank/bearing condition, not to extend their life.

[Sam Buchanan]

8 minutes ago, kencombs said:

Oh, definitely not reusable.   My assessment was relative to overall crank/bearing condition, not to extend their life.

 

Ok, you had us thinking "Whaaaat??" when you stated "The bearings actually pretty good, other than staining from long storage with acid containing oil in it." Some of us took that to mean you thought the bearings were good to use. We are all on the same page now.    

Edited April 28 by Sam Buchanan

[Cooper40]

Thank you all for your assessments. Keith, I could catch my fingernail on the crank unfortunately 🙁. I rrrreally don't want to have to drop the crank..... I'll measure more and see what I get. I'll also drop a main bearing and check it out. 

[Sniper]

One of the reasons you should add a PCV system, it'll help contain the acid issue.

[keithb7]

If you have to remove and grind the crank, you're pretty much all-in for an engine pull. Then you're that far in, does it make sense to re-use timing gears?  New front and rear oil seals, gaskets. The front cover and inner retainer plate, all has to come apart. You can see how this goes together in my video below here.

 

Big job. Where does one stop? You could consider just rolling-in new bearings, measure clearances with plasti-gauge. If it is not too far out of spec  button it back up with the new bearings. Fire it up. Measure oil pressure and plan future repair options down the road. Maybe you'll get decent oil pressure and get some more years out of the old engine. Having a spare block and crank out behind the shed gives some peace of mind. 😀

 

I will admit, after opening up and measuring my engine, some head scratching, I kept going. There were a few meetings with myself at 3AM trying to decide how far I was going to go. Overall I loved the experience. When it was all done I was happy and satisfied. Yet I probably could have gotten away with cylinder hone, piston re-ring, valve grind and a full bearing roll-in. What I ended up with is a fully rebuilt and machined engine that will out-live me.

 

 

Edited April 28 by keithb7

[Cooper40]

@keithb7 I think I'll plan on getting all new bearings and measure with plasti-gauge and hope that the clearances are within spec. When we got it running last year, it had oil pressure up to 40lbs. We weren't exactly idling it though. 

Couldn't I technically polish the crank under the car with really fine grit sandpaper. Don't get me wrong I know this is not how you're supposed to do it lol! 

[vintage6t]

2 hours ago, Cooper40 said:

Couldn't I technically polish the crank under the car with really fine grit sandpaper.

You can polish the journals but not cut them. Cut strips of Silicon carbide sand paper, lubricate the paper with wd40 or whatever your favorite is. Wrap around the journal with a wide flat shoe lace, and work it back and forth. Work from 600 up to 1200 grit in using a grit like 800 or 1000 in between. Clean well when done, especially the oil passages in the journal.

[Los_Control]

2 hours ago, Cooper40 said:

Couldn't I technically polish the crank under the car with really fine grit sandpaper. Don't get me wrong I know this is not how you're supposed to do it lol! 

First of all 40 psi above idle is not bad, at idle as long as it is close to 10 psi I feel you would be alright.

As you say polishing the crank was done in the vehicle if needed.

What you need to be concerned with is checking the specs with plastigauge.

 

Myself I'm spoiled with growing up in a world where a machine shop was close by, I could drop a 6 cyl chebby head off and have it completely rebuilt and pick it up 3 days later .... for $75.

So it was naturally just the quickest easiest way to do a job.

 

Today we need to find a machine shop, then you are lucky if you can get them to work on your stuff in the next 3 months.

Then the price is outrageous.

 

If you have ridges you can catch a finger nail on or can see, they should be removed as they will just dig into the new bearings. ..... polish,   polish, polish.

 

If they actually look good, then you just need to be concerned with wear. I personally would not polish if they look good, might make them worse.

 

So it comes time to install the bearings and use the plastigauge ..... all check within specs but one is out ....

Now is the time to sit back and drink a cool adult beverage .... use the aluminum can to cut a shim and install it behind the bearing so the bearing reads specs.

 

This trick will work for more years then I can count ..... Our Grandpa's did not have machine shops or money to pay them.

We did growing up ..... Today it seems like we really do not have that option unless you are willing to wait months.

 

GET UNDER THERE AND FIX IT!!! Make your Grandpa proud.

[Ivan_B]

I'd just put it out there: in is never to late to cut your losses, and get a good working car instead

Forget about "face saving" and "no-quitting" attitude. Do a reasonable common sense evaluation of your current capabilities and overall goals for the next few years.

Edited April 28 by Ivan_B

[Cooper40]

Ivan, I definitely get what you're saying. It's kind of fun to me to try and save this engine. I know, it's not the most practical. I have entertained the idea of swapping...For now I'm going to keep trying to save this one and think of it as a learning experience. It did run and have oil pressure... Again, totally understand where you're coming from...I like a challenge! 

[Cooper40]

@Los_Control The crank looks pretty good except for the ridge I felt with my fingernail. I found some sandpaper on amazon that I'll get. Know where I could get rod and main bearings? I've seen rod bearings on ebay. Of course I need to finish measuring to ensure I get the right size, i was just curious if you knew of a good source.

[Cooper40]

@vintage6t Thank you, I've seen this done before. The pictures are very helpful! 

[Ivan_B]

Well, if the engine was running, after you got it unstuck, why did you decide to open it up to inspect the bearings? An engine this old (and stuck) is guaranteed to be out of specs, no need to check

Unless you are planning a rebuild, taking the engine parts apart will probably cause more problems because they shift ever so slightly when you put everything back together.

If the engine was running without knocking or any other unusual noises indicating that it is seriously ill, I would probably flush it good, make sure that the air/fuel/spark are properly adjusted, that is it not overheating, and hope for the best.

[Cooper40]

@Ivan_B I removed one of the rod caps to determine which piston was stuck and that's when I noticed the bearing that looked bad. I decided to put it back together and it get it running briefly and then put new ones in in the spring (now). Probably if it wasn't stuck, I would've got it running and never even thought about the bearings. 

I'm just doing what I thought I should do since I've seen the condition of the bearings....but maybe you're right, I could put it back together and it might run fine. 

[keithb7]

If you are having fun, learning, and want to salvage the old engine, polish and run in a new set of standard bearings. LIke @Los_Control said.   Plastic-gauge. Shim if needed. See how it goes. Cheap. Easy. I can buy new bearings at Vintage Power Wagons : https://www.vintagepowerwagons.com/products/new-connecting-rod-bearing-sets-std-230

 

I like the old NOS ones. These look good: https://www.ebay.com/itm/266766797305?itmmeta=01HWKTQMJAYW0Q17AN6V4961VH&hash=item3e1c8a49f9:g:CnwAAOSwl75mGdgr&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8P%2FOygEM2BNeu1SsjFAL78%2Bh1N%2FJkatXMtnliC0krcn7L6j6kCaZVaRMWxvHCAtA4HIiwai6hPcQ%2FAh5%2FLhRjtbhiQckQ3qYaomG22rdKD3fpuK47ov0YYKvxAJeHilwuuRi4yxzk0dEchBQv2kXbMxGxDaGhCVG9Fo%2B%2B9flAtHpHQ5P9UAgVrgO8uJ6JH2KE%2BhbZiCO2vwl4fE0f%2Bl2Xb4hmu2yUl1uxVQtZ8wqVucjV17TxFoWTXQX%2FeEJ5yrMr8X3d8pwDsbl%2F2yYas3Rarg%2BM75UjYo2Oe08rZ0E4HI2%2FMlIcow%2B7KSkjQE9PUNPOA%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR6LJ3vrkYw

 

Plenty of options on E-Bay. I got my McQuay-Norris .002 polish bearings on there.

Edited April 29 by keithb7

[Ivan_B]

Despite what people say, having an immobile car is never fun. I just done some minor repairs and had the car stationary for a week (because I am very slow and lazy) and that was not fun at all. It feels good to improve things when you can also enjoy the car, you are working on, by driving it daily. Otherwise, it is a never-ending time and money pit.

I would also recommend the fastest possible repair. There are plenty of other things you need to fix to get it going, if the engine it running okay, let it run. And don't you dare to take a look inside the gearbox, etc. It is messed-up, do not worry about it. If it still shifts, use it.

Edited April 29 by Ivan_B

[Matt Wilson]

As was mentioned above, you'll need to figure out how to keep the sanding debris for getting into the oil passages, or figure how to get it out afterward.  Maybe put a small piece of tape over the hole leading to the passage in each crankshaft journal, and sand around the tape.

[Cooper40]

@Matt Wilson Ok thank you that's a good idea.

[Cooper40]

Bad news guys. I was measuring each journal and I got to #2 and I think the bearing is spun. I think the tab is broken. The crank has two score lines going around it and they get pretty deep on the top of the journal. The crank is toast it seems. Pics below.

 

So I could either drop the crank and maybe get it machined, although my measurements were on the low side of normal so idk if any more can be ground off?

Or, put a new engine in. I don't have a hoist or engine stand and I'm doing this in my back yard. The car is on plywood but other than that it's just grass so it would be hard to move anything lol. 

 

That's the news. I'm not surprised honestly. The engine seemed pretty worn out. Big ring ridges at the top of the cylinders and it probably has close to 200k miles on it. 

[keithb7]

Out of curiosity, what did #2 journal OD measure? 

[Ivan_B]

2 hours ago, Cooper40 said:

it probably has close to 200k miles on it. 

Seriously? For a 50-s engine with no repairs - it is probably done. Very sorry to hear that.

I am just curious, how much did you pay for this car, $2-3k?

[Cooper40]

@keithb72.0613 I believe. I measured but forgot to write it down. That's below spec though...

[Cooper40]

@Ivan_B Yeah I'm just guessing on the mileage. When looking at the odometer it looked like it had rolled over and the pedals were very worn. I don't know for sure though.

I paid 2k for it. Looking back on it it does seem a little pricey for this considering the engine was locked up and the floors are bad. The body is in good shape though. 

[kencombs]

Sorry to hear that as the engine should come out.   Dropping the crank in the car is much more work than pulling the engine before disassembly.   EDIT:  I wouldn't even consider that.  

The crank may be able to be turned, utas .040 under used to be available if ,030 will not clean it up.  But be sure bearings in the final size are available for ordering.

Or, it can be welded up, at extra cost of course.

 

 

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Edited May 5 by kencombs