Bingster Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 I'm seriously thinking of buying a De Soto driver that I can actually drive, and use my present car as a parts car. It's in excellent shape and I should have fixed the brakes and driven it when bought it. I know a little bit more about what I should be looking for, but as you know from my posts on this site there is always the possibility that I could buy trouble. I'm sure you can give me some advice on this. One good thing is that it would lower my monthly car payment over $100. I'd rather pay for a car that will appreciate in value than decrease like a 2016 Subaru. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plymouthcranbrook Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 I wouldn’t bet on any old car to appreciate in value. Especially the ones those of us here enjoy. Relatively inexpensive to buy and reliable to operate. But increasing in value is certainly nothing to count on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 I think by reading your prior threads you may end up with two in-op project cars.....tread carefully 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave72dt Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 What did your expert in Des Moines say about your starter after you dropped it off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 even if you purchase a driver desoto you are still going to need to keep it running and there always needs parts to maintain it. So take the money that you would have spent on the 2nd Desoto and put it into the current Desoto. Since you state that you are not a mechanic then you will still have to have someone repair the driver. Also what year desoto are you look at purchasing? The last year for full production was 1960 so the youngest car will be approx 64 years old. and the parts are getting harder to find each year. So get a more modern car around 1997 and you can then still have an antique car and would have more options. Rich Hartung Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bingster Posted January 11 Author Report Share Posted January 11 I haven't taken my starter to Des Moines yet. Waiting for some $$$. I will report one way or the other. All of your ideas are sound. I guess since I just turned 70 I was looking ahead. My life is going to change considerably this year, but the car has always been in the plan. We're moving from our acreage where the car has been in a Morton Building. In fact, I now have lost tons of time building a platform for the car to be rolled onto and worked on. All that's for nothing. But I thought I would die on this land and things didn't work out that way. So I can't help but wonder that in light of the upcoming changes in my life if I might be impractical to think that in the next ten years - if I am blessed to have that - I will ever get behind the wheel of this thing and drive it to the local Dairy Queen. Not that I particularly like their soft serve. You guys all make good points. Good sense. For now I'm going to plug along as planned and get the engine going, do the brakes, fuel system (already rebuilt fuel pump), and anything else that will enable me to drive it somewhere. But lest you folks think that I am a complete neophyte there was a period right after I bought the car when I did an extensive amount of research, buying of rare and hard-to-find replacement parts, and restoring what I could with the skills that I had. I have always looked at this project as breaking it down into doable sections. I'd think, "Well I could do the brakes in this amount of time and the fuel system in this and the interior in that (not tackling the headliner) . . . etc. etc. I saw a guy on You Tube last night who replaced the front window-vent seal on his 1947 Chevy. Took him 1-2 hours. So I think "Well, I could do one side by lunch and the other by dinner at a leisurely pace accounting for problems." Now, I already have all window garnish frames removed and primed plus my vent windows are also removed with the parts in bags. Will saved a lot of time when the time comes to install them with new rubber. I had the paint from Grain It to do a Bird's Eye Maple faux finish on the interior trim but got detoured and the paint can eventually clogged up. The floor pan has been taken out and restored, the engine compartment fender sheet metal has been removed and restored as well, plus the radiator dust pan shield, crossbar, front bumper apron, and for weather protection all of the front suspension system has been primed and painted although not for keeps. Front and rear brake parts are on hand as well as shocks and misc. suspension pieces. Many chrome pieces are NOS or near. I even found a NOS "Flying Lady" hood ornament. Etc. etc. You can see that I focused most of my attention on metal restoration and painting, restoring or replacing fasteners, gaskets, rubber parts, etc. So yeah, a lot of time has already been invested. But as my wife reminds me "it always takes longer that you estimate." I honestly cannot believe it has been that long. I guess life just sort of pushed it out of the way. But with your help I have gone from the engine compartment being a total mystery to me best approached by guys who know what they are doing to "I think I could that." I've watched so many guys take their engines apart that it really does break down to just following procedures. I could take the head off, hit the valves with a hammer and start the car. I can handle that, if the starter works. (Some of you will be tempted to take me seriously.) It'd be a lot easier for me than finding TDC! I still wince, though, at the prospect of removing the engine, putting it on a stand and rebuilding it there, even though it would be a lot easier and fun doing it that way. Well, this has been cathartic for me but probably tedious for you. But while I'm here, how much to do the upholstery? I can do the door panels. But the seats need to be heavily re-done, carpets, headliner, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los_Control Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 Let me toss out my two cents You do not have to be a Ace mechanic to enjoy driving a Desoto. There are many different situations for different people ..... The one thing that brings us all together is we enjoy these old cars and they mean something to us. Some people like myself, I can not afford to buy a running driving vehicle. I do enjoy having the project and look forward to working on them when I can. Sometimes I think just having the project to work on keeps me sane. There are some people that can do the work, the investigations, everything needed .... They just do not have the time. So they have a mechanic or shop where they take the vehicle to and have it serviced. ..... Some while they know what needs to be done, just do not have the physical ability to do the job. I'm just suggesting that many drive old vehicles and we all have a different level of understanding, mechanical ability and time. A very good analogy is, buy the best car you can afford. Majority of people like myself, buy what they can afford, then spend years trying to make it a decent vehicle and in the end they have more time & $$ tied up in it then what they could ever sell it for. Sooo, in my book, if you can buy a running driving car, then use your experience to keep it running and take your wife out for afternoon drives ... take it to the shop when needed. You and your wife will enjoy the vehicle while you are still mentally, healthy enough to do so ..... Life is too short to be unhappy. So personally I'm all for you buying a running driving car and just figure out how it will be properly maintained for reliable driving pleasure. As far as using your existing car for a parts car ..... I dunno about that ..... I do not know the condition of your car, maybe it would be better for another to restore? None of my business. Just enjoy life while you can, it is much shorter then we first planned on. ..... If driving a Desoto makes you happy .... DO IT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bingster Posted January 11 Author Report Share Posted January 11 Thank you. That definitely is the other alternative. What I should say is that for me to get a driver I would have to make it my only vehicle to swing it. Okay. That may not be a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los_Control Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 That is a terrible idea. I personally am down to one vehicle while I work on my Dodge truck. .... It is a bad place to be. My daily driver truck is a older 1991 chebby that has a really good running sbc 350 & a manual 5spd transmission. .... 5 months ago the clutch went out .... It was a bad thing to be without a vehicle while I ordered parts to get it going again .... I think it took a good month for me to do the job. Other then a small bearing noise when I pressed in the clutch .... The throw out bearing just failed and left me sitting. I hate having only one vehicle for transportation. Today in another thread I'm working on a sad running truck where I'm trying to get the engine running better on my 49 Dodge truck. I ordered a distributor cap and got the wrong one .... getting the wrong parts for a 75 year old vehicle is so common that you can not get upset. ..... It cant be your only vehicle though. My chebby I paid $2k cash for it, it ran good but needed some maintenance ... So it is paid for. I have been driving it for 6 years, new tires, brakes, clutch, starter, battery, exhaust, distributor, water pump, u-joints .... I have no problem taking care of it as it breaks down, It is cheaper then a car payment. But I feel capable of taking care of it before it leaves me sitting on the side of the road ....... And I still fail at that. I have to admit that someone with higher power then me helps me out. When my clutch went out, I was just backing into my driveway. When my front wheel bearing went out, I made it home from a 100 mile trip .... yeah the next morning I could not drive around the block. Last week I was going for a 150 mile trip to see a family member in the hospital .... I told myself I had to check my tires. I have been making the same trip for a couple months ... Something told me I had to check the tires again ..... Sure enough I found a screw in the tire .... Had it fixed before going for the trip to see the family member. I get by with a hope and a prayer with one vehicle ..... I'm not sure my Angel would stick with me if my only Vehicle was a Desoto. Buy a older dependable vehicle, pay cash, keep it running .... Then buy a Desoto as a 2nd car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bingster Posted January 12 Author Report Share Posted January 12 Okay. So what exactly is the definition of "daily driver?" A classic car that has been restored to a point where it can safely run "hobby trips" to the hardware store or church, etc. A car that is safe enough to drive to work and other trips where it takes preference over a modern family car. This means that you take every opportunity to drive it. So I am not sure if the term basically means "hobby car." Does daily actually mean daily? For example, given the age of our cars I wouldn't want to drive mine over the Sierra Nevada grades to California unless it has been converted to disc brakes. That would also include a completely upgraded cooling system. etc. Why would somebody want to take a '47 De Soto to California? Just because. For me that would be a great part of the vacation experience. Unless of course I find myself by the side of the road. So is there really any situation where daily driver means go anywhere with it? Seems not. In my situation, I live among corn and soybean fields where the roads are relatively level and not heavily traveled like the bigger cities. I can drive within a reasonable radius and even if the car broke down it would not as a rule present a great danger or impossible situation to right. So for me church, super market, Wal-Mart, etc. are easily doable. Except I always fear somebody who is jealous of someone else having something nice that they can't have keying the side of the car. That is always a consideration, even here in Iowa. I have been thinking of your various comments. Los_Control has a good point. Life is too short when we 're thirty let along seventy as I am. For me a daily driver's tasks would be to drive more or less locally. I'd feel pretty good about that if a car has been properly restored. I wouldn't buy a personal restoration. It would have to be from a known dealer in classic cars. I don't have the money to just go out and buy one. To Los_Control's point my wife has had Alzheimer's for over four years and is now in dementia. Gosh I hate to type that word. I've had her at home and I have been her only caregiver. We used to talk about finishing the car and taking it to car shows and cruise nights and the like. Now that is not possible, even though if we had a car she could go because she still gets out with me. So yeah, I could say that it would be nice to at least do some of that with her before she gets too bad to go. Or accept that train's already left the station. There have been a lot of those trains in the past four years. I'm certain they'll find a cure for it but . . . Anyway, I have to sell this house first and then let the dust settle. I have no idea where we're moving to let alone where I'm going to keep the car to work on. I may feel completely different about this by that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 At the recent Mecum Car auction in Florida they had a Desoto fully restored come across the bock and it sold. i forget the price but around 60k+. But this then could be a daily driver since it was a full ground up restoration. I am so sorry to hear about the health of your wife. Yes, that does make a difference when thinking about a driver car and also the cost to support her. Like I stated before since the last desoto was made was in 1960 you would now have a 64 year old car on the road and even if it has been fully restored there is always the possibility that some 64 year old part is going to need to be replaced and these older parts are getting harder and harder to find. So my suggestion is look at the various auction houses and see what is being offered and then try to find a more modern car that would also be an antique that is very road worthy. To enjoy the hobby it really does not need to be a Desoto, unless you at really set on having one, but the real concern is that you can take your wife with you on a trip in the older car with more modern equipment and then both of you can be with each other and have quality time with each other. At this point in time the quality time that you spend with each other enjoying what both of you like is the most important thing in life and not the specific car that you are driving. The memories that you will have together is what you will cherish. We just lost my father-inlaw at the age of 93 from dementia. He was a Model A collector. I now Cherrish all of the time that i spent with him while working on the old 1931 Model A and touring with him in his 1931 Model A 4 door phaeton along with the many years that we spent walking together looking for parts at the great Hershey AACA swap meet. It did not matter what modern car or antique cars we drove but it was the special time being together that really counted. Hope you can accomplish getting the car of your dreams but remember your wife first. She is the most important thing right now in your life. Enjoy the time together. Rich Hartung Desoto1939@aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bingster Posted January 12 Author Report Share Posted January 12 That's a great story about you and your father-in-law sharing time together. I'm certain everything will work out for us how it's suppose to happen in the scheme of things. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 your biggest worry is when you park out and away from all the cars, some chap interested in your car will park right next to you and blamo..the klutz will allow his door to slam into your car......just because they too dang lazy to take another 5 steps.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los_Control Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 It is good to think about things and have a plan. I think you can do all of the things mentioned while daily driving your Desoto. As just mentioned a fully restored car would be a good candidate, but more importantly one that is in mechanically good shape is a better candidate. Something you will not cry over if a shopping cart bumps into it and mars the paint. While it is important for the car to be in good mechanical condition if it is your only car .... Daily driving requires maintenance. Modern cars with computer controlled ignition and fuel systems, self adjusting brakes .... they require less maintenance or very little. Our cars are going to require regular brake adjustments, points and timing will need to be adjusted somewhat regularly, oil and grease .... seems there will always be something that needs tinkering with. .... Thats fine if it is not your only car. The first time you have to take your wife to a Dr appointment, and you find the choke is stuck or the points need adjusted ... you cant go anywhere til it is fixed, you will miss having a modern car around. A starter can go out at any time, imagine the problem you have had with your current Desoto and imagine it was your only vehicle The quality of parts for our older cars is almost criminal .... how they are poorly made but often only option we have. Just seems difficult to rely on them as a only vehicle. If they have the original drive train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soth122003 Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 36 minutes ago, Bingster said: Okay. So what exactly is the definition of "daily driver?" A classic car that has been restored to a point where it can safely run "hobby trips" to the hardware store or church, etc. A car that is safe enough to drive to work and other trips where it takes preference over a modern family car. This means that you take every opportunity to drive it. So I am not sure if the term basically means "hobby car." Does daily actually mean daily? For most people the term "daily driver" means the car you drive every day to take care of errands, work or just the date drive with the spouse. For long distance trips, You want a dependable car that won't break down on the trip. This could be the vintage classic or the newer car. It all depends on you definition of reliable. Also the drivers age plays a lot into this consideration. At 20-late 30's, you are basically bullet proof and break downs are part of the adventure. At 40-50's the risk reward comes more into play. The old car might break down and do I want to risk it? At 60+ you think about yesteryear versus reality. I would love to do this but... If the car breaks down can I fix it on the side of the road, cause there are no known shops that wiil/can work on these old cars. I see Rich just posted a reply with some I the things I was going to add as well, so I'll Just say the daily driver is up to what you want to do with the car. I just bought my wife a 2024 Toyota. I hate the car but my wife loves it. The important thing is I bought the car for my wife and not me. For me it's too small (I'm 6'7 and my wife is 5'1) It has all the crap I hate in a car, collision avoidance, lane departure, and lots of other things that it will try and drive itself instead of me driving it. It is a reliable car and has a warranty that is good nation wide and can be fixed nation wide. My next car for myself will be a 40's era Mopar. It is uncomplicated and fun to drive, but it will have to be in great condition as I can't really do the heavy fixing due to health issues and older age. (It hurts to get up from the ground and I can't bend like I used to) Another thing is that a restored classic is about as expensive and the cheapest new car. With all this said, Buy a dependable car for the wife (even though she can't drive, you will want a car for her needs that will be your definition of dependable) and then get your car for yourself and have fun making memories with your wife. My dad was in you shoes for a few years before my mom passed at 87 from dementia. Now he has the memories from being with her doing the things they enjoyed while she could. Joe Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 I will say one thing, think of the problems you have had all these years and NOT yet got your DeSoto on the road and NOW think of the shops you have carried your stuff to and they have charged you an arm and a leg and YOU STILL DO NOT HAVE a repaired component much less an operational car. This is a hobby, done for fun, while can be reliable only to the point you are SELF RELIANT..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los_Control Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 There is always user error to contend with. I'm realizing that my distributor has been changed over the years ... so when I order parts I'm getting the wrong pieces and had to remove my distributor and take it to Napa and use the id number to order parts. So when I put the distributor back in yesterday, I now have a no spark no start condition ..... I automatically assume it is the new condenser that went bad. I have a know good working condenser for a spare and 3 brand new ones never installed .... that is how much I trust new condensers .... total junk. Just between you and I, don't tell anyone ..... I woke up at 2:00AM out of a deep sleep remembering I never connected the coil wire to the points when I installed the distributor yesterday. Naturally I have no spark. Now it will only take 2 minutes to hook it up and start the engine, curious to see how well the carburetor works that I just installed. I was out in the shop all day yesterday and just not feeling it today. I may go out later and hook it up and run the engine ... If I feel like it. If it was my only vehicle I would not have a choice, I would be out there fixing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bingster Posted January 12 Author Report Share Posted January 12 I'm afraid that one way or the other I will have a lot of time on my hands to work on a car. Just me and my cat. He's great company but can't handle a wrench worth a darn. So that's one big change from my ten years past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soth122003 Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 59 minutes ago, Bingster said: Just me and my cat. He's great company but can't handle a wrench worth a darn. Now you really remind me of my dad. My mom passed in 2017 and my Dad has only had his cat for constant company since. He will be 89 in March and hasn't been able to swing wrenches for the past 20 years. If not for that cat, I think my dad would have wasted away after a year or two. He is pretty healthy and that cat is the only thing keeping him going. Joe Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los_Control Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 (edited) Having free time is good. It is things we can not control that is bad. Something as simple as my distributor cap can be a pita. I ordered a cap for a 1950 dodge and it was delivered the next day from napa. But it was the wrong cap so I had to take it back and we used the distributor number to order this time, now it will be here Monday or Tuesday. That is 6 days waiting for a simple distributor cap..... No big deal, you just get used to being patient when dealing with 70 year old cars. It is harder to be patient when it is your only car .... myself I would be stressing out over it. My main goal is to have a complete set of spare ignition parts in case I break down on the road .... I can reach under the seat and grab the needed part, swap it over on the side of the road. .... Then order a new part to replace it with so I still have a spare in stock. These are things you can do to prepare yourself for future break downs ... Naturally having a spare Desoto for parts is pretty handy and would help immensely. I believe you could daily drive it if you prepare for it by having needed parts on hand 2 hours ago, soth122003 said: Buy a dependable car for the wife (even though she can't drive, you will want a car for her needs And I'm a cheapskate .... some are polite and call me thrifty None of my business how well you will be financially set after you sell your house and what your new housing plans will be. I'm just a firm believer in no payments. My wife has a older Dodge caravan that is in really nice shape ... Just does not run ? I'm looking on FB market place for Caravans and you can find a few good deals for around $2k-$3k ... just be cautious as they often get over 300k miles on them and there are several that look really nice and say they run great and have over 300k on them .... thats a little much for me. Here is a 2012 they say it runs fine has 148K interior looks really nice the asking price is $2900. Keep all the maintenance up on it and could last you the rest of your life and no car payments! I do see some hail damage with dings on the hood. Also it is in Texas so no rust issues, not sure about your area ... do you fight road salt? That makes the used car market different. Besides no car payment, I imagine you are required to carry full coverage insurance. I carry liability and uninsured motorist in case I get hit by a uninsured driver. Very basic. 2 cars & 2 drivers we pay $180 every 6 months .... its not bad. So there is a big savings there also. Savings from insurance would soon pay for the price of a used vehicle. Then get your Desoto. Edited January 12 by Los_Control Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Buchanan Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 "Daily Driver" is commonly defined (especially by insurance carriers) as the vehicle that is your primary, "daily" mode of transportation for work, pleasure, or traveling. I have three vintage cars that are in excellent mechanical condition, I can confidently drive them anywhere with an expectation of reliable service. However, insurance carriers that cater to vintage vehicle WILL NOT offer coverage for a daily driver, and we must have a true daily driver on a conventional policy before they will insure our vintage cars, and the vintage policy has mileage limits for each covered vehicle. So, my old cars are most definitely not daily drivers. Being vintage means they do not have the creature comforts, safety and ease of repair that a modern vehicle possesses. Know what concerns me most about daily driving my old cars? Collision damage. It is true insurance would either repair (or total) any of these vehicles but how long would my P15 be in a body shop waiting for replacement fenders, doors, glass, frame/suspension, etc even if they can be found? Weeks, months, a year, two years???? Most likely the insurance carrier would just cut a check to get rid of the hassle, and then I would be out of a vehicle if it was my "daily driver". That is...if I was fortunate to survive a collision in a car with NO safety features...... ? Bingster, my heart goes out to you and your wife for the very challenging situation you face. Most likely some day you will wake up each morning in a world you don't recognize and the sense of being lost will be overwhelming. I've been there, I lost my dear life companion nearly three years ago, the emptiness can't be described. But she loved riding in the P15, I'm so thankful we shared those experiences. Stay strong, brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bingster Posted January 13 Author Report Share Posted January 13 Thanks Sam! I have imagined what that experience would be like and even in imagination it's shattering. I can only "imagine" what it's like in real time. My prayers out to both of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithb7 Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 Speaking about my own experience, I love my 1938 Mopar cars. Some things I like better about them than 21st century cars. I drive my old Mopars quite a bit each spring, summer and fall. Any excuse to drive an old car I'll take it. To the bank, store, post office, doctor, whatever. A '38 Mopar could almost be considered my daily driver for 7 months of the year up here in Canada. Yet I do not drive a '38 to work every day. Nor do I want to drive one in icy cold winter weather for several months. I do like some modern conveniences. A/C being the biggest one in the summer. The 12V quick spinning starter and a very efficient heater during the bitter winter in my modern car, wins. Sure I could convert my '38 to 12V and install A/C. Add a alternator and electric wipers. I'm not interested in doing that. I really can't imagine today, trying to have an old flathead-era Mopar as your only car. It can be done, but I'd need to be quite prepared. All wearing parts, I'd want spares bought and stored here at home. No excessive down time waiting for parts, then getting the wrong parts and waiting again. I'd prefer a hydraulic lift. I'd be under there a lot lubing and adjusting everything. It would get good seat belts. A better audio system than the stock AM radio. Upgraded cooling system. I'd stay off the interstate type hi-ways. Brighter head & brake lights. I can live with the stock engine power, transmission, brakes, suspension & steering. The winter up here would be brutal. Likely the most challenging part to overcome. An upgraded heater system somehow would be needed. Then, what's really left in this old 1938 car? Its now a concoction of new updated parts and systems that still needs a lot of tinkering and maintenance. I love my '38 cars for exactly what they are. Beautiful, interesting, fun cars to take out and drive in fine weather. I image this scenario seen below here in my '38 Plymouth. I did recently acquire the rectangle window heater filament system seen here. It suction cups on the inside of the windshield. Sure, it might be fun once for a gag. Everyday for a couple winter months? Sure they had to back in the day, but I'm soft I guess. No need to punish myself and prove I could daily drive my '38 Plymouth all winter in 2024. To win a bet? Might be fun then. Lol. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bingster Posted January 14 Author Report Share Posted January 14 Hi Keith. Happy New Year. Love your videos. Learned a lot from them. Yeah, you and the others have pretty much convinced me of the pitfalls in having a car with no modern heat nor air. Tonight it's about -15 here in Iowa and would I like to drive the 47' to the convenience store? Well, I'm not driving nothin'! But if I had to it would be brutal. BTW, I think that's a lousy deal about those who stole your invention. I don't know if you're still making them, but if when I buy one I'll buy it from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithb7 Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 @BingsterI'm glad to hear my videos have taught you some things. That was my primary reason for making them, to help other old Mopar owners. I've aborted the tool & die making business. Lol. I'm trying to refrain from calling out the dirtbag with no morals. ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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