Transmision Assembly Grease

[James_Douglas]

When I pulled part my transmission and examined the parts, I noted that the rear of the counter shaft was worn through the case hardening. These are all NOS parts when I rebuilt it 15 years ago (50K miles). I do not mean some wear, I mean a lot.

 

When I examined the shifter housing I also noted that at the "oil level line" and above the wheel bearing grease I used in assembly had not completely washed away from the splashing oil.

 

I have emailed several of the companies that market assembly grease that is labeled for transmissions. Including manual transmissions. What I got back from to of them so far has been interesting to say the least.

 

When I wrote then I explained about how these older transmissions had cast iron housings and much heavier internal steel parts. I also explained that why mated with the Borg Warner Overdrive that made them even larger and that the BW overdrive had an iron clad requirement for no Hypoid additives no matter what.

 

So far the responses have been that although they list their product for manual transmissions, that they felt the the older transmissions would not get hot enough to cause their product to melt away and could starve the needle bearings and cause accelerated wear. It may take months for it to wash completely away from the bearings.

 

I am waiting on the other companies responses.  There was an article on Engine Builders website that talked about the positives and negatives of assembly lubricants and how one has to be careful to match the grease to the need, lest one can create an issue. Enlightening.

 

Now that I have one transmission ready to put back together and another in the pipeline, I am trying to figure out what to use to hold the bearing into place.

 

James

 

 

 

 

[Sniper]

I usually use a wooden dowel, usually a broomstick handle, to hold the countershaft needle bearings in place, not grease.  Cut it so that it is as long as the cluster, lay the assembly in the case and use the counter shaft  to push the dowel out.

 

Here's an article showing the use of a dowel.

 

https://www.hotrodreverend.com/post/2017/12/01/mercury-3-speed-with-r10-overdrive-rebuild-part-1

[Loren]

Vaseline is the approved “retention grease” for automatic transmissions.

I use it almost everywhere else.

 

On overdrive lube: my thoughts are that the reason B-W didn’t want anything but GL-1 lube in them is because of the sprag clutch rollers. You do not want them to slip at all. Hypoid gear lube or EP lube have additives to promote the sliding of one gear against another. So my thinking is that ATF or motor oil will work just fine in an Overdrive. Since Automatics have sprag clutches planetaries and a much higher heat load, ATF should work great. A friend of mine who builds automatic transmissions for racing has used motor oil in his customers boxes. ( John Kilgore ) So either one should be servicable.

[JohnS48plm]

I used Amsoil synthetic motorcycle oil in my R 10 overdrive. I can't remember what weight it was . I drove it that way for 5 years, it shifted easily and was quiet.

[James_Douglas]

I wish I could fine some documentation as to why Borg Warner did not want to use hypoid. I suspect like Loren stated that the sprang clutch is the issue. On the trans side the issue is the yellow metal of the syncromesh and that is why one should never use an oil or ATF with  "Active Sulfur" as part of the additives. Many of the zinc additives today also have sulfur in them so make sure that inactive sulfur is what is in it.

 

I did find an very short article on the subject of sprang clutches from a manufacturer who states that additives can prevent the sprang from properly working as one engineering element in designing a sprang clutch is the coefficient of friction. This also makes sense on the BW overdrives in addition to the fact that the Balk ring works by friction and BW makes a big deal in the book on checking the pull force with a spring scale to make sure it is within the specifications. Again, a friction coefficient part.

 

I guess if a lubricant sticks too good to these parts it upsets the calculated friction and the parts may not work as intended.

 

I did net a reply from Lubriplate and they said they have an assembly grease with a very low melting point. I may try that.

 

Sniper, thanks, I have several wood dowels that I made 15 years ago and use them to put the needle bearings in. I do find that some lube helps to keep them in even with the dowel. The rollers for the sprang on the OD have to be greased to get in and BW tells you to do that. BUT, the old drum only grease had a much lower melt point that the new grease I am told.

 

James

 

 

[Sniper]

Petroleum jelly melts between 105 and 160 degrees F, if that will help any.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_jelly

 

Most greases have a much higher melting point.

 

 

[kencombs]

Back in the 60's and 70s 3spds with or without OD where the most common transmissions.  Dad owned a salvage back then and those transmissions where among the most commonly sold items.  Teenagers, 3spds designed in the 40s/50s now with much higher HP in front of them.  Dad sold a lot!  So many that used ones wouldn't even begin to fill the demand.  So he rebuilt hundreds, more likely thousands of them.  Similar to Sniper's technique but using a cutoff countershaft to hold the needles.  Usually used the older wheel bearing grease, sometimes Vaseline to assist.  

 

I did several for him but my choice of assembly lubes, engine and trans, where Lubriplate white grease or Vaseline. 

[Loren]

Back in the 1970s I had a 49 that had a "Growl" in the transmission when you operated the clutch.

It wasn't the throw-out bearing it was in the gearbox itself.

I'd sit at the stop lights and use the clutch pedal to make it growl hoping to get the attention of a dog in the car next to me.

The ears would go up and sometimes they'd bark. Great fun!

The retail price was $75 exchange at my local wrecking yard and yes they had lots of them.

[DJ194950]

Some have used a thin rubber band to hold in the rollers of the sprang in while assembling, which I ended up doing after many tries using just greases of several types.

 

The rubber band just gets pushed out during assembly and then is chewed up and drops out without causing any problems. Too soft and no volume to the band.

 

James I feel you may hate the idea of using the rubber band but my R-10 worked great for the years (6) that i owned the car (just sold).

 

DJ

[Andydodge]

I've always understood that the use of brass synchro rings is the reason why certain types of oil shouldn't be used.........but I'm no gearbox expert............andyd

[thebeebe5]

I’ve never had an issue with Transjel Gold.

[James_Douglas]

I got a couple of tubes of the Lubriplate assembly grease and it is fairly thin. Much thinner than bearing grease. I will try that and see what I get. It is nice stuff for the general assemble in any case.

 

I got a response from the Engineering Manager of one of the largest OEM makers of sprang assemblies for the auto companies. He confirmed that when the large rollers in the overdrive freewheel cam climb the ramp that EP additives create a boundary layer that tries resists metal to metal contact. In fact the harder the push the more the EP chemicals resist. This will case slippage in the cam and can damage it. You want it to have the roller and the cam have metal to metal contact and lock.

 

So, with respect to Borg Warner overdrives one should never use any lubricant that has any of the EP (hypoid) additives in it no matter what. That takes some detective work to make sure there is none in there.

 

Guess SAE Motor oil it is...

 

James

[Sniper]

1 hour ago, James_Douglas said:

Guess SAE Motor oil it is...

 

10w30? ?

[James_Douglas]

BW said in their manual to use SAE 40 or for high heat - heavy duty use run SAE 50.

 

James

[Tired iron]

Here's the assembly grease I use when rebuilding transmissions.  It was recommended to me by a transmission shop that specializes in old 3 speeds! Very sticky to keep all those pesky needle rollers in place and melt at low temps to dissolve out of the critical spaces where gear oil needs to get.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Tired iron

[James_Douglas]

On 2/19/2022 at 8:34 AM, Tired iron said:

Here's the assembly grease I use when rebuilding transmissions.  It was recommended to me by a transmission shop that specializes in old 3 speeds! Very sticky to keep all those pesky needle rollers in place and melt at low temps to dissolve out of the critical spaces where gear oil needs to get.

 

 

Odd, I wrote to the company that makes Lubeguard and asked about its use in cast iron three speeds of 1940's and 1950's vintage with yellow metal and overdrive with sprang clutches. They wrote back that their grease may not melt due to lower temperatures of the the older manual transmissions due to their mass.

 

James

[Tired iron]

Huh, well, i hope it does cause this fall i rebuilt the transmission in my International Scout, which is a dedicated snow plow so only gets used in cold temps. That transmission is pretty much identical to the three speed i am rebuilding for my 1950 Meadowbrook. Maybe later this Spring I'll pull the cover off and take a look and see if there's any gobs of green.

[Tired iron]

  Ive learned something from your posts, James, and am going to take my Scout out for a spin on a hot summer day to make sure my assembly lube gets melted! Thank you.

 

Here's pertinent info from a transmission shop, Novak, where I often get transmission parts.

 

Assembly Lubricants

Grease, including all axle and bearing greases, are absolutely not acceptable assembly lubricants as they will not melt and flow out of bores, bearings, synchros and journals, clotting transmission oil passages to the demise of those components. 
Use a few squirts of regular oil into deep-ball roller bearings that are otherwise inaccesible to assembly lubricants.
It is critical to lubricate all mating and adjoining parts upon assembly with a proper assembly lubricant to protect components during initial spin-up of the transmission. Consider our three product recommendations:
1. SmartBlend Transmission Assembly Lubricant #5500: This is marvelously sticky stuff, which makes it ideal for 
“gluing” loose needle rollers together into their bores, as well as sticking thrust washers and other items together 
where the factory may have used assembly tooling such dummy shafts or magnetic assembly methods. This lubri-
cant will melt out of the parts upon the first sign of operating heat and be subsumed into the transmission fluid. 
We recommend you keep your SmartBlend in the refrigerator to make it as sticky as possible.

2. Frozen Petroleum Jelly: Will generally perform like the above, but not quite as sticky and may not offer as good 
of spin-up protection prior to the transmission fluid reaching the components.
3. Engine assembly lubricant: This is a fairly safe assembly lubricant for transmissions, but is no good at sticking 
parts together for ease of assembly.

 

We have disassembled and 
inspected more of these transmissions than just about any shop in 
the nation, and we are constantly impressed at how hard-wearing 
the gears are, still showing their original machining marks.

[James_Douglas]

Hi all, I am posting this question here so as not to start another thread...

 

Does anyone have an R10 sitting on the bench right now that they have not taken apart other than pulling the R-10 out of the transmission case?

 

I need to know how much movement you get on the overdrive control shaft when you move the overdrive lever on the side of the case. I am just getting a very little movement of that shaft when I move the arm after putting it back together. I cannot for the life of me remember how much or how little it moves.

 

So, if someone has one that they have not torn down too much, I would appreciate it if you would move the lever and tell me how much movement you get.

 

Thanks, James

[Wood and Steel]

On 2/23/2022 at 9:39 PM, James_Douglas said:

Hi all, I am posting this question here so as not to start another thread...

 

Does anyone have an R10 sitting on the bench right now that they have not taken apart other than pulling the R-10 out of the transmission case?

 

I need to know how much movement you get on the overdrive control shaft when you move the overdrive lever on the side of the case. I am just getting a very little movement of that shaft when I move the arm after putting it back together. I cannot for the life of me remember how much or how little it moves.

 

So, if someone has one that they have not torn down too much, I would appreciate it if you would move the lever and tell me how much movement you get.

 

Thanks, James

I'm going to pick up an R10 next weekend. If you still need an answer by then, I'll let you know.

[James_Douglas]

Hi All,

 

I did something stupid. I did not note the relative position of the four bolts that hold the transmission to the bell housing. I have two short bolts and two longer bolts and on the longer bolts one is a little longer than the other.

 

I spent an hour looking at all of my Desoto and Chrysler Parts books. In none of them do they show (or I am just not seeing it) these four bolts with the length.

 

If anyone can shed some light the bolt length for the four holes I would be grateful. Perhaps a Dodge or Plymouth parts book will list the lengths of the bolts. They are 3/8 course.

 

*** As an aside, I purchased on of those Harbor Freight 2000 lb. Low-Profile Transmission Jacks. I tossed the the side bars on the top and put two strips of 1x2 down each side and bolted it to the plate. I then put in some 1 inch closed cell foam between the strips on the plate with spray adhesive. I then used two bungee cords to hold the trans to the plate. I was able to get the unit complete back in place by myself on my back here in my cold slanted San Francisco garage. The jack worked just fine.

 

James

 

 

[Dodgeb4ya]

The 3spd/M4-5-6 transmission mounting bolts are 7/16" X 14...all 1946-54...length to be long enough.. not too short-not too long.

[DonaldSmith]

Bolt lengths?  There is some room within the bell housing (brain lapse - is that what we call it?) for the bolts to go in, without hitting the clutch assembly, so they can be long enough to help pull the transmission in.  As I remember from six years ago - 

 

Of the four bolts to the bell housing (?)' the bottom left bolt has to be short enough to fit.   (I forget the purpose of the bolt is on the boss below our lower left bolt.)  I used various sawed-off bolts as guide pins to slide the trans into place, some really long at one point.   You shouldn't need a guide pin for that short bolt location. 

 

x

[Sniper]

I don't really use guide pins, I just replace the bolt with an appropriately long stud and use that, then once the trans is in I put a nut and lock washer on it.  Usually in the two top bolt holes.

[Dodgeb4ya]

The M5/M6 transmissions do use 7/16" studs on the lower two mounting holes.