A theoretical question...

[SuperGas61]

Hey, everyone...so, as the title suggests, I have a theoretical question for the folks on here who are infinitely more knowledgeable about these cars/engines than I am. Let's say you had a 1951 Plymouth Concord, and you were interested in running the car in a racing class in which you HAD TO run the stock engine (or engine family) available with the car from the showroom floor. Now, that would be the 218, because I think that was the only engine available in the two years of Concord production, although according to the rules, I believe you could also run a 230, because the block (unless I'm mistaken) is the same (it's in the same "engine family," which would exclude the 251 and 265, both because they're two inches longer and because they weren't available with the Concord, unless Canadian Concords came with the bigger blocks), and you're allowed to modify stroke and bore within certain parameters--i.e., you can open the cylinder bores to 0.150 over, and you can stroke it as much as you want, as long as the crank and camshaft remain in the stock location in the block. (I'm also pretty sure that you can use an aftermarket cam and aftermarket rods and pistons of non-stock sizes.)

 

Furthermore, you basically can't do anything to the head, although the block deck can be milled up to 0.150 (but I don't think you can mill the head). Other than all this, you can use ANY transmission, ANY non-quick-change rear-end, and ANY exhaust system (i.e., headers), and you have to have a full cage and a racing seat. But the rest of the car has to be pretty much bone stock--you can take out the stock seats, headliner, carpet, minor chrome items and emblem, and you can run an aftermarket fuel tank (but the stock fuel tank has to remain in place), but that's about it. You can't run a turbo or a blower, and you can't use EFI, but you can use any ignition system (although it can't be interactive, i.e. make decisions based on sensor input), and you can only use a computer for data collection.

 

ARE WE HAVING FUN YET???

 

So, if you were tasked with making this car go as fast as possible under the above conditions, with no streetability required, and with money (reasonably) no object, what would you do?

 

This test will not be graded, and any and all input (even smart-ass input!) is greatly appreciated...thanks!

 

Gary

 

 

[Sniper]

Your biggest issue will be the suspension.

 

Running it hard in corners will quickly show the shortcomings.  Wheel hop, bumpsteer and poor front shock functionality top the list.  Not to mention brakes.

[Booger]

Im waiting for Newton and Alfred to chime in...? what no? I would argue stock is stock

Della! get Paul Drake on the phone

[Booger]

OBTW Concord one of my favourites

[Loren]

A 230 Dodge crank and rods is one choice (the pistons are the same per standard Mopar practice).

If you wanted to push the envelope a 265 Chrysler would be my next choice. Canadian cars came with a 25 inch engine. You practically have to have a tape measure or a very well trained eye to tell the difference. Besides a longer stroke for more torque the 237/251/265 have bigger ports than the Plymouth/Dodge 23 inch engine. They are very similar because the same engineer headed up both design teams.

Lee Petty in his 49 Business Coupe ran Imperial springs, shocks and wheels with 4.1 rear end gears (to compensate for the Imperial Tire size). His car still went 92 mph for 500 miles.

The stock 3 speed has an alternate 2nd gear ratio if you find you need it. The 1940 cluster and second gear is what you're looking for. They were made one year and can be had NOS pretty cheap on eBay.

If you want a taller high gear you can go with the Plymouth B-W Automatic Overdrive and you can still use the 1940 2nd gear.

The stock rear end is plenty strong and uses a 3rd member design. Which means you can change ratios very quickly by exchanging the Differential Carrier.

The ratios are nice and broad ranging.

You can up-rate the brakes from stock 10 x 2 drums to Chrysler Windsor 12 x 2  drums.

So yes a Plymouth can be used as a vintage racer.

[Plymouthy Adams]

let say we had to stick with basic stock.....is the same as LET's pretend we are racing....

[knuckleharley]

3 hours ago, SuperGas61 said:

Hey, everyone...so, as the title suggests, I have a theoretical question for the folks on here who are infinitely more knowledgeable about these cars/engines than I am. Let's say you had a 1951 Plymouth Concord, and you were interested in running the car in a racing class in which you HAD TO run the stock engine (or engine family) available with the car from the showroom floor. Now, that would be the 218, because I think that was the only engine available in the two years of Concord production, although according to the rules, I believe you could also run a 230, because the block (unless I'm mistaken) is the same (it's in the same "engine family," which would exclude the 251 and 265, both because they're two inches longer and because they weren't available with the Concord, unless Canadian Concords came with the bigger blocks), and you're allowed to modify stroke and bore within certain parameters--i.e., you can open the cylinder bores to 0.150 over, and you can stroke it as much as you want, as long as the crank and camshaft remain in the stock location in the block. (I'm also pretty sure that you can use an aftermarket cam and aftermarket rods and pistons of non-stock sizes.)

 

Furthermore, you basically can't do anything to the head, although the block deck can be milled up to 0.150 (but I don't think you can mill the head). Other than all this, you can use ANY transmission, ANY non-quick-change rear-end, and ANY exhaust system (i.e., headers), and you have to have a full cage and a racing seat. But the rest of the car has to be pretty much bone stock--you can take out the stock seats, headliner, carpet, minor chrome items and emblem, and you can run an aftermarket fuel tank (but the stock fuel tank has to remain in place), but that's about it. You can't run a turbo or a blower, and you can't use EFI, but you can use any ignition system (although it can't be interactive, i.e. make decisions based on sensor input), and you can only use a computer for data collection.

 

ARE WE HAVING FUN YET???

 

So, if you were tasked with making this car go as fast as possible under the above conditions, with no streetability required, and with money (reasonably) no object, what would you do?

 

This test will not be graded, and any and all input (even smart-ass input!) is greatly appreciated...thanks!

 

Gary

 

 

Shoot myself for destroying a rare antique car?

[Sniper]

2 hours ago, Loren said:

So yes a Plymouth can be used as a vintage racer.

 

I believe he said class racing, not vintage.

 

In which case, though you can still make it a race car, it's not likely to be successful.  Now if he meant vintage racer, then maybe.

[Booger]

Daytona started on the beach. Google the pictures, pretty cool

[greg g]

Based on the username, it suggests this will be for drag racing.  You can make a lot of changes, spend a lot of money and maybe if the stars align, the temperature, humidity,  barometric pressure are perfect,, karma kicks in and you cut a perfect reaction time, you might run a 19 second quarter, at 62.2 mph.  If this is worth the time and trouble, and money, and meets your idea of fun, rock on.

 

Had a friend in high-school, bought a 63 Chevy II , it had a 194, cu in 6 made120 hp.  He won his class N/stock, and finished 2nd in stock eliminator for the season.  His best time was an 18.7 at 63 mph.  He won most of his races cuz guys in faster cars red-lightd, seeing him half way down the track and their side of the Christmas tree still ticking down at them.  Was it fun, maybe, we had some good laughs at the guys with the 400 plus engines complaining about his starting advantage.  But those were the rules back then.

Edited October 3, 2021 by greg g

[Sniper]

Looking at the rules he mentions, I don't think it's drag racing.  maybe the OP can clarify? 

[James_Douglas]

Assuming money is no object...

 

Since we know that the last Chrysler had the 265 engine. This had the 4.75 stroke. This required a special rod with special bolts to clear the block. I see no reason why you could not have one of the rod makers create a set for you. Of course you would have to send a crankshaft out for stroking to 4.75. This is all assuming it will clear the block on the 23 inch blocks.

 

Everything else would be typical high performance stuff...

 

James

[Plymouthy Adams]

and the pimple faced kid next door blows you away with his 50cc moped....

[Los_Control]

Lots of fun to be had here.

If you take 5 exact same cars then add 5 different drivers ...There will be a race of skills and guts. Would be a interesting race.

 

Recently there was a plan from Mopar to use 10 cars all hemi and equal in power. The deal is, these are test cars donated to builders. The builders have a budget of $10K to make a race car out of it. ... These cars will be crushed after the event.

Just saying starting with a equal pile of crap and a equal pile of cash ... It will separate the mechanics from the trunk monkey's .

 

Who is going to follow the rules and build the fastest car in the race? All mechanics are not created equal.

While one mechanic is trying to get more horsepower ... another is trying to get more traction and better gears ...

 

Just saying I think a well laid out set of rules to build a car can be a lot of fun and a challenge.

[SuperGas61]

Hey, everyone...thanks for the replies! So here's the deal. The governing body in question is the SCTA, aka the Bonneville folks. I've always loved land speed racing, and I've actually done a little bit of it (ECTA, LTA, and in a blown Chevy HHR, no less, which I know is ridiculous), but never at Bonneville. And while I'm not really a bucket-list kind of person, I really would like to run the salt at least once before I die (I'm 60, so, you know, any day now... ?). Recently, I talked to a guy who's a very well-respected LSR builder and racer (he built the cage in my HHR) about what it would cost to build a belly-tank lakester for the salt--and because I've become fascinated with flatheads since I bought the Plymouth, my plan was to run a Mopar inline 6 flathead in the lakester, which I think has been done, but not very often. So he quoted me a mid-five-figure dollar number, which I pretty much choked on and really don't think I can afford or even justify. But then I was looking through the 2021 SCTA rule book, and I noticed that the current record for the XO/PRO class (XO is the engine class for non-Ford/Mercury flatheads under 325 ci, and PRO stands for a production body) is 139.713 mph. And despite the fact that that's basically TWICE as fast as the Concord currently runs, I put my beer goggles on and said, "Hey, what if...?" And to be honest, if I just went 100 at Bonneville (especially in a cool car like the Concord) I would probably die a happy man.

 

But I will say that I have to agree with the poster who suggested that maybe I should shoot myself for destroying a rare antique car--or at least, MOST of me agrees with that. There's still a little part of me that says, hey, you know what, it's just a car...and I currently own it! But to be honest, because it's a really stock class, you could actually bring the car back to true stock condition pretty easily--cut the cage out, clean the salt off, get rid of the headers, put the headliner back in, and off you go!

 

ANYWAY...thanks for humoring a crazy old man! I'll keep you posted if I end up doing anything... ?

 

 

[knuckleharley]

5 hours ago, SuperGas61 said:

Hey, everyone...thanks for the replies! So here's the deal. The governing body in question is the SCTA, aka the Bonneville folks. I've always loved land speed racing, and I've actually done a little bit of it (ECTA, LTA, and in a blown Chevy HHR, no less, which I know is ridiculous), but never at Bonneville. And while I'm not really a bucket-list kind of person, I really would like to run the salt at least once before I die (I'm 60, so, you know, any day now... ?). Recently, I talked to a guy who's a very well-respected LSR builder and racer (he built the cage in my HHR) about what it would cost to build a belly-tank lakester for the salt--and because I've become fascinated with flatheads since I bought the Plymouth, my plan was to run a Mopar inline 6 flathead in the lakester, which I think has been done, but not very often. So he quoted me a mid-five-figure dollar number, which I pretty much choked on and really don't think I can afford or even justify. But then I was looking through the 2021 SCTA rule book, and I noticed that the current record for the XO/PRO class (XO is the engine class for non-Ford/Mercury flatheads under 325 ci, and PRO stands for a production body) is 139.713 mph. And despite the fact that that's basically TWICE as fast as the Concord currently runs, I put my beer goggles on and said, "Hey, what if...?" And to be honest, if I just went 100 at Bonneville (especially in a cool car like the Concord) I would probably die a happy man.

 

But I will say that I have to agree with the poster who suggested that maybe I should shoot myself for destroying a rare antique car--or at least, MOST of me agrees with that. There's still a little part of me that says, hey, you know what, it's just a car...and I currently own it! But to be honest, because it's a really stock class, you could actually bring the car back to true stock condition pretty easily--cut the cage out, clean the salt off, get rid of the headers, put the headliner back in, and off you go!

 

ANYWAY...thanks for humoring a crazy old man! I'll keep you posted if I end up doing anything... ?

 

 

IIRC,there is a company called "The Dodge Boys" (and I am almost certainly wrong about the name) from the northwest (Montana?) that build and sell speed equipment for flathead Mopars. They have a 28 or 29 Dodge roadster they built to run at Bonneville,and their goal is to drive it into the 200 MPH Club at Bonneville with a 4 cylinder Dodge flathead engine. 

 

I THINK they have made runs in the 180 mph category  already,and are still working on getting more power,but my memory sucks these days.

 

Anyhow,this IS a real company that really does offer unique speed equipment for ancient Mopars. Even flat 4 Mopars.

 

Ok,found it!

 

Home (moparmontana.com)

 

THESE are the guys you need to talk to.

Since I bought an Edgy head from them for the flat 6 DeSoto engine I am putting in my 42 Dodge coupe and another Edgy head for the 230 flat 6 engine I am planning on putting in my 33 Dodge 4 door,you would think I would have had their home page bookmarked,but for some reason I didn't.

 

Oh,well. Thank you for inspiring me to look them up before I completely forgot about them.

 

BTW,I apologize for my snarky first response. For some reason I was thinking you wanted to go circle track dirt racing with your old Mopar,and that ALWAYS leads to wrecks and total destructions.

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by knuckleharley

[SuperGas61]

3 hours ago, knuckleharley said:

IIRC,there is a company called "The Dodge Boys" (and I am almost certainly wrong about the name) from the northwest (Montana?) that build and sell speed equipment for flathead Mopars. They have a 28 or 29 Dodge roadster they built to run at Bonneville,and their goal is to drive it into the 200 MPH Club at Bonneville with a 4 cylinder Dodge flathead engine. 

 

I THINK they have made runs in the 180 mph category  already,and are still working on getting more power,but my memory sucks these days.

 

Anyhow,this IS a real company that really does offer unique speed equipment for ancient Mopars. Even flat 4 Mopars.

 

Ok,found it!

 

Home (moparmontana.com)

 

THESE are the guys you need to talk to.

Since I bought an Edgy head from them for the flat 6 DeSoto engine I am putting in my 42 Dodge coupe and another Edgy head for the 230 flat 6 engine I am planning on putting in my 33 Dodge 4 door,you would think I would have had their home page bookmarked,but for some reason I didn't.

 

Oh,well. Thank you for inspiring me to look them up before I completely forgot about them.

 

BTW,I apologize for my snarky first response. For some reason I was thinking you wanted to go circle track dirt racing with your old Mopar,and that ALWAYS leads to wrecks and total destructions.

 

Hey...no apologies needed! And thanks for that link...that's awesome...I can't believe I never saw these guys before. That's exactly what I'm looking for, whether the engine ends up in the Concord or in a lakester. I had actually just contacted a guy at H&H Flatheads, who pretty much just do Ford flatties, and he liked the idea of running a Mopar flathead at Bonneville, but said that they couldn't do it. So I'll definitely check them out...this has reinspired me to go the Mopar flathead route, regardless of what vehicle it's in. And if you want to check out another interesting group of Pacific NW Bonneville guys, visit the Hudson Boys website (http://hudsonboys.com/)...these guys have set TONS of slow Bonneville records, which is almost as impressive as the guys who go 400 mph...okay, almost... ?

 

Gary

[Plymouthy Adams]

Bonneville I do not really consider racing...it is a speed trial...completely different scenario..

Edited October 4, 2021 by Plymouthy Adams

[SuperGas61]

5 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

Bonneville I do not really consider racing...it is a speed trial...completely different scenario..

Agreed...and as much as I've always loved watching roundy-round racing off all sorts, I've never really had a desire to do it...I also drag raced a little bit about 20 years ago, but I've kind of lost my passion for that, too...LSR kind of hits the sweet spot of cool cars, cool people, and crazy speed...

[Loren]

In my misspent youth I did a lot of Dry Lake racing and I knew a lot of the "Old Timers" (we call them Legends now) who knew what they were doing.

I got frustrated with SCTA/BNI because each new group of administration loved to put their stamp on the rulebook and they never corrected or updated old rules they only added new ones. So the rulebook grew from an 1/8th of an inch to 5/8ths thick by the time I threw in the towel. The rules were ridiculous contradictions of themselves and good engineering as well. At a time I was driving a 1000 miles off road in the Baja with a co-driver in wheel to wheel competition they would not let me drive 5/8ths of a mile on a flat level smooth lake bed with my co-driver.

 

What put me over the edge was the case of the late Don Debring. He was a Lockheed engineer who had been very successful with a FIAT powered streamliner. With no more records to break in his class he sold his streamliner and took care of business pre-retirement from Lockheed. After a short period he got the itch again and started building a new streamliner. Once it was completed he called for an inspection. The inspector then told him the new rulebook would be out in a month and his new car would not met the new rule for tubing thickness! Don passed away from cancer before he could rebuild his new car.

 

It was fun in spite of the politics until too many folks decided to race. The lines get so long at Bonneville you might get one run a day. We used to race down then turn around and go the same speed on the return road to get back in line. Then they made a rule you had to be towed back at no more than 15 mph and had radar gear set up to enforce it. For a bucket list item it would be fun of course, as a serious hobby not so much. It's amateur racing...just a bit too amateur for me. They would say safety is the goal. I would say if you want to be safe do not race. Use good sense and the best engineering to anticipate and manage risk but you should have no expectation of being safe. All things considered it is way too expensive for the fun factor. There are other alternatives.

[SuperGas61]

1 hour ago, Loren said:

In my misspent youth I did a lot of Dry Lake racing and I knew a lot of the "Old Timers" (we call them Legends now) who knew what they were doing.

I got frustrated with SCTA/BNI because each new group of administration loved to put their stamp on the rulebook and they never corrected or updated old rules they only added new ones. So the rulebook grew from an 1/8th of an inch to 5/8ths thick by the time I threw in the towel. The rules were ridiculous contradictions of themselves and good engineering as well. At a time I was driving a 1000 miles off road in the Baja with a co-driver in wheel to wheel competition they would not let me drive 5/8ths of a mile on a flat level smooth lake bed with my co-driver.

 

What put me over the edge was the case of the late Don Debring. He was a Lockheed engineer who had been very successful with a FIAT powered streamliner. With no more records to break in his class he sold his streamliner and took care of business pre-retirement from Lockheed. After a short period he got the itch again and started building a new streamliner. Once it was completed he called for an inspection. The inspector then told him the new rulebook would be out in a month and his new car would not met the new rule for tubing thickness! Don passed away from cancer before he could rebuild his new car.

 

It was fun in spite of the politics until too many folks decided to race. The lines get so long at Bonneville you might get one run a day. We used to race down then turn around and go the same speed on the return road to get back in line. Then they made a rule you had to be towed back at no more than 15 mph and had radar gear set up to enforce it. For a bucket list item it would be fun of course, as a serious hobby not so much. It's amateur racing...just a bit too amateur for me. They would say safety is the goal. I would say if you want to be safe do not race. Use good sense and the best engineering to anticipate and manage risk but you should have no expectation of being safe. All things considered it is way too expensive for the fun factor. There are other alternatives.

You're on the wrong coast, unfortunately, but Loring in Maine is great for hot laps. They use the 13,000-foot runway at the old Loring AFB in Limestone, and unless you're going over 200, you need to get back on it before you even reach the turnoff...it's a huge place. The people are great, too. It's definitely a poke for anyone outside the Northeast, but they get racers from all over the country every July...

[knuckleharley]

3 hours ago, SuperGas61 said:

Agreed...and as much as I've always loved watching roundy-round racing off all sorts, I've never really had a desire to do it...I also drag raced a little bit about 20 years ago, but I've kind of lost my passion for that, too...LSR kind of hits the sweet spot of cool cars, cool people, and crazy speed...

Never had much desire for circle track racing in cars,but you ain't lived until you have gone flat-track racing on a motorcycle!

 

If you think a 4 wheel drift is a blast in a car,imagine a 2 wheel drift around a dirt track corner,and then pulling a wheelie to straighten up before you slide into the wall. 

 

Oh,my! VN wasn't that exciting,and I ran recon.

[greg g]

You might also make contact with one of our British members who take their slightly modified street cars ,all P15s I believe over to Wales and run the beach there with their vintage speed group.  I think one owns the record with his 2dr sedan.  There is content within this forum covering their participation several years back.  Search word Penndine Sands.  They do a measures mile with a half mile run up to the timed mile.  Running on the beach at low tide. I I remember they were in the high 70s low 80s with their street legal unmodified body's and interiors.  218 and 230 for engines.

[Loren]

There is a group that does vintage racing VORRA I think is it name.

I once took in a race in Reno that a friend was driving in.

One of the highlights for me was watching a very well driven ESSEX 4 racer (between 1919-23 they were powered by an F-head 4 cylinder). This rather large high wheeled (wooden spokes too!) racer really showed what an old car could do sliding around corners and powering out.

 

Then there is the La Carrera Pan Americana. Which is a revival of the Mexican Road Race done as a Rally with speed sections.

A branch of that group ran a race in Ensenada, Mexico that I participated in. It starts with a hill climb for qualifying then the next day a race from Ensenada to Valle de Trinidad on the highway with a lunch break then back. It favors the 1950s cars but you can run cars up to 1968. The U.S. stock classes have to run drum brakes as only Jaguar had discs in the early 50s. A favorite Unlimited Car is the 1954 Studebaker Coupe with an SBC (since the last Canadian built Studebakers used Chevy engines) In Mexico the rules are a little more casual with regard to safety. They figure it is your responsibility to do things right because it is your hide on the line. American cars of the 1950s are highly encouraged and gain the most attention.

[SuperGas61]

2 hours ago, knuckleharley said:

Never had much desire for circle track racing in cars,but you ain't lived until you have gone flat-track racing on a motorcycle!

 

If you think a 4 wheel drift is a blast in a car,imagine a 2 wheel drift around a dirt track corner,and then pulling a wheelie to straighten up before you slide into the wall. 

 

Oh,my! VN wasn't that exciting,and I ran recon.

And then you have the Russian ice motorcycle racers... ?