Engine Failed and Need Help With Bearing Identification

[TravisL17]

Decided to drive the Meadowbrook to work today since its not so hot and humid. 25 miles into my 29 mile commute the engine started knocking. Had good oil pressure the whole time. Thanks to roadside insurance I got it towed home and began investigating. Pan removal revealed that #3 rod seemed a bit loose. Pulled the cap and found this

I need help deciphering what the info on the bearing is. Does the SB indicate standard size bearing?

 

My plan is to go old school down and dirty with it. Clean up the crank journals as needed, put in needed bearings and finish out the summer with it. IF things go as planned, the original engine to the car will be rebuilt and installed over winter. 

 

The engine in question has a P26 serial number indicating a 55 Plymouth 230. Any help with bearing info and journal size is greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by TravisL17

[allbizz49]

I believe under/oversized bearings would have a number after the -SB- stating the size. I'd say yours are standard. Wouldn't hurt to mic the crank. Then there is no guessing. Good luck, you'll be on the road in no time.

[Sniper]

This is what the backside of the rid bearing on my core 230 looks like, .001 US

 

[TravisL17]

So, the number 3 bearing is different than the others I removed and the upper half was installed so the oil hole didn't line up with the hole in the rod. Plus the lockwashers on the rod caps are all missing. I did a Google search on the number on the back of #3 bearing and its standard size. I have a bunch of NOS bearings and a parts book from July 1950. None of the bearings I have will fit a 50 Dodge. I assume a 55 Plymouth crank is the same as a 50 Dodge. Anyone have parts manual for 55 that will confirm the bearings I have will/won't work for this engine? Also, anyone know what the standard rod journal should diameter should be. I can't seem to find it in my shop manual.

Thanks for any info, its appreciated.

 

[DJK]

Andy Bernbaum shows 42-59 Plymouth L-221 part number, 34-59 Dodge L-222 part number. My 52 Cranbrook 218 is 2 1/16 rod journal diameter.

[kencombs]

13 hours ago, TravisL17 said:

So, the number 3 bearing is different than the others I removed and the upper half was installed so the oil hole didn't line up with the hole in the rod. Plus the lockwashers on the rod caps are all missing. I did a Google search on the number on the back of #3 bearing and its standard size. I have a bunch of NOS bearings and a parts book from July 1950. None of the bearings I have will fit a 50 Dodge. I assume a 55 Plymouth crank is the same as a 50 Dodge. Anyone have parts manual for 55 that will confirm the bearings I have will/won't work for this engine? Also, anyone know what the standard rod journal should diameter should be. I can't seem to find it in my shop manual.

Thanks for any info, its appreciated.

 

Not all of them had lock washers when new.  And those with washers didn't really have a locking type, just a hardened washer to prevent the nut from digging into the rod surface.  They don't loosen due to the torque, resulting bolt stretch and developed tension.

The year coverage listed earlier is correct according to my memory, old Hollander and online research as is the 2 1/16th diameter.  Micrometers or Plastigage will tell the whole story on wear.   The only interchange issue with the cranks is the number of flywheel attaching holes, 4 or 8. 8s fit 4s though.

[TravisL17]

Update on my engine issue. I will preface this by saying that I was trying to do a quick and dirty repair to finish out the summer and do a proper repair over winter. Checked all the rod bearings- #3 was the worst and you could see where the babbitt was cracking and letting go of the steel back. Others had some scoring and embedded debris, but not beat up like #3. I looked through rod bearings from some of my parts engines and picked the best looking one. Also mic'd a couple journals and they measured just a bit under 2 1/16th (measurements are out in garage). Difference was small enough that I'm confident it hasn't been ground. I installed the "new" used bearing and checked clearance with plastigauge. Measured about .002 - about half a thou over spec, but good enough for what I was trying to do. Put it all back together and cranked without spark plugs to build oil pressure. Got 40lbs cranking. Started the engine and had the same knock....

I let it run and performed some tests that I was too afraid to do before, as I didn't want to risk wiping out the crank. Now knowing the state of the rod bearings I no longer had that concern. I shorted one plug wire at a time and found #3 barely contributing. However the noise did not change when shorting plug 3- seemed odd to me. I pulled the plugs and noticed #3 was now ever so slightly darker than it was on initial check. Checked compression and #3 has 45psi. Others were 112 to 120. Pulled the head and found this

 

The debris was hitting the head and the noise could be heard in the pan. The impact with the head must have been what beat the bearing up. Hindsight being what it is, I had some warning signs for this failure that I chose to ignore. Heavier crankcase vapors, slightly rough idle and a very slight tick that I attributed to the oil pump or fuel pump. My guess is the ring was cracked for most of this driving season and finally let go.

 

My new tentative plan is to buy a set of pistons, rings and bearings. There isn't much ridge that I've found so far and only light scores in a couple cylinders. Hoping to hone the cylinders, install new pistons and rings, new rod bearings, check mains and replace if needed. 

 

Trying to keep costs down. After doing some thinking on it, a full rebuild won't be in the cards (finances) this winter. I have my 51 B3D I want to get going too. Figure if I get the Meadowbrook back in service for a few hundred, I can still get the truck on the road for next year too.

 

Tomorrow I will drop the pan (again) and get #3 piston out and do some thorough inspection.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by TravisL17

[keithb7]

Be interested in hearing about bore dial gauge measurements. Do you have one? #3 taper and out of round. 
 

I pulled my engine last Oct. I found the top ring broken on #1.  All machining has been done. All new parts in hand. All labor, aside from machining done by me. Pretty easy to hit $4k USD pending what machining is needed and what parts are replaced.  Just an FYI. 

[TravisL17]

I do not own bore gauges. Either will borrow or purchase. I too am curious about bore measurements. I'm still surprised about the lack of ridge. There isn't much crosshatch left. I have a set of .030 over pistons, if I could be so lucky that this block is .030 over. 

Thanks for the info on cost. I was on Egge's website today and saw rebuild kits for about 1700 and seem pretty complete. Machining is not cheap, but it's a skilled trade. And craftsmanship is getting harder to find these days, so good machinists are worth their asking price.

[keithb7]

I can think of a couple things to blow a top ring. 
 

An engine sits for years and the rings start to oxidize. A stuck ring may not expand/compress during combustion. It breaks. 
 

Ring gap may be too tight upon engine assy. Ring cannot expand under heat. Ring breaks under combustion stress. 
 

Sooty, inefficient cold running engine in poor state of tune with valve lash issues. Cold engine with short distance trips. Too cold operating temps with no thermostat used. Rich Air/fuel mixulture. Low compression.  Poor spark timing. Poor state of tune...I could go on. Leads to soot and carbon build up behind the top ring. It packs in the ring groove. Ring cannot compress and expand any more.  Piston Ring is stressed during combustion and breaks. 
 

Someone  uses “starting fluid” on stubborn engine. Boom. Compression Ring breaks. But hey, it flashed right up!

Edited August 16, 2021 by keithb7

[Adam H P15 D30]

If it's just that one cylinder, I would drop a new piston in there, clean up any marks in the head and move on.

[TravisL17]

This morning I removed the carbon ridge from cyl 3, dropped the pan and pulled piston 3. The mic set im using only goes to 3" so I used a digital caliper for a quick piston measurement. Measured out to 3.25 on the skirt perpendicular to the wrist pin. Think its safe to say this is a standard bore. The top compression ring is in pieces and missing about 1/4 of it. Check out the piece of double decker compression ring!

 

I'm still surprised about the lack of ridge, must be a lower mileage motor than expected. I will aquire a bore gauge and measure the cylinder properly.

[Dartgame]

I'm with Adam - If the bore is undamaged and mics out in spec, hone it, and drop in a new piston & rings.

[TravisL17]

I finally got back to digging into the engine more. I was going back and forth between just doing the one cylinder or doing all 6. My gut said do all 6, but time and budget was saying just do the one. I decided to do all the rings, swap in a used piston to replace the failed one and hone all 6. I pulled the other five pistons out today and cylinder 5 was the only one that DIDN'T have a broken ring. Cylinder 1 had both compression rings broken. I know they aren't fresh breaks from removal because the breaks had carbon stains and smoothed edges from rubbing together. I never would have guessed this to be the case given how it drove, idled and compression test results. I've read many times how these flatheads are durable and forgiving, but experiencing it firsthand blows me away. The pic below shows piston 6. Top compression ring was broken and the ring groove was getting hammered out. 

 

Tomorrow I will get pistons, rings and rod bearings ordered. This week will be cleaning parts and honing cylinders.

 

Also, the block in the car is from a 55 Plymouth with internal coolant bypass. The head that was on the engine, I assume is off the original 50 Dodge engine with external bypass (The engine swap was done by the PO and the original engine came with the car). The external bypass head doesn't completely cover the bypass hole in the gasket so I have no idea how it wasn't pouring coolant from the bypass hole in the block. It did have a very very slight weep at the front of the head, but never terrible. I am going to drop off the 55 Plymouth head at the machine shop and have it cleaned up and cut. Looking at HP ratings, the 55 Plymouth made about 14 more HP. I assume from the bump in CR. Since bore and stroke didn't change the only difference must be in head volume, Right? Switching to the 55 Plymouth head should bump CR and HP a little bit and more importantly ensure there won't be a coolant leak from the mismatch bypass situation. 

 

This has been and educational experience. I'm not new to working on engines, but I am new to working on these flatheads. I am thoroughly impressed by these engines. I love their simplicity and durability.

[TravisL17]

I've made some more progress on the Meadowbrook the last couple days. I sent the 55 head to the machine shop and had it cleaned up, mag checked and milled flat. He had to take .014 off to make it flat again. Once I got the head back home I realized the hole in the head for the temp gauge bulb was way too small. It was 1/4NPT and needs to be 1/2NPT for the gland nut to fit. Drilled and tapped it to the correct size and thread. Then I found the hole in the head for the throttle linkage bellcrank pivot was 3/8NPT and needed to be 5/16 UNC. So I drilled and tapped the center of a 3/8 pipe plug to fit the 5/16 bolt and got that taken care of. Now the 55 head should work in the car. Then I got the deck surface of the block cleaned off and chased all the bolt holes for the head bolts. Also cleaned up the head bolts and inspected them. I got all the cylinders honed out and coated with oil to prevent flash rusting.

Pistons, rings and rod bearings are coming from VPW. I got a new t-stat housing coming from bernbaums. I purchased a head gasket set from a local parts store and found the head gasket was damaged when I got it home. Ordered another set, went to exchange it and the second head gasket was more damaged than the first. They ordered 2 more sets and a lone head gasket. Hopefully one of the 3 they ordered will be undamaged.

All the heavy work is done until I get parts. After spending hours planking on the left front fender of my car today, I expect I will be sore in the morning.

[greg g]

Good progress, thanks for the up date. Is that original paint? Looks real nice in the pic.

[TravisL17]

It was painted in 97 by the PO. Monarch Maroon, I'm told its an original color offered by Dodge. The original color of the car was a blue/grey color, not sure of the actual name. 

[Mazzdodgeboy]

1 hour ago, TravisL17 said:

I've made some more progress on the Meadowbrook the last couple days. I sent the 55 head to the machine shop and had it cleaned up, mag checked and milled flat. He had to take .014 off to make it flat again. Once I got the head back home I realized the hole in the head for the temp gauge bulb was way too small. It was 1/4NPT and needs to be 1/2NPT for the gland nut to fit. Drilled and tapped it to the correct size and thread. Then I found the hole in the head for the throttle linkage bellcrank pivot was 3/8NPT and needed to be 5/16 UNC. So I drilled and tapped the center of a 3/8 pipe plug to fit the 5/16 bolt and got that taken care of. Now the 55 head should work in the car. Then I got the deck surface of the block cleaned off and chased all the bolt holes for the head bolts. Also cleaned up the head bolts and inspected them. I got all the cylinders honed out and coated with oil to prevent flash rusting.

Pistons, rings and rod bearings are coming from VPW. I got a new t-stat housing coming from bernbaums. I purchased a head gasket set from a local parts store and found the head gasket was damaged when I got it home. Ordered another set, went to exchange it and the second head gasket was more damaged than the first. They ordered 2 more sets and a lone head gasket. Hopefully one of the 3 they ordered will be undamaged.

All the heavy work is done until I get parts. After spending hours planking on the left front fender of my car today, I expect I will be sore in the morning.

Very nice ride.  I am building a 230 myself for a 48 P15.  I bought a complete kit from Clegs engine in Utah.  Haven't got it here yet but it was pretty reasonable. 

[TravisL17]

My parts arrived today and I need some advice on a couple items.

 

First is piston rings - These are NOS rings that I ordered. When comparing the new rings, the cast colored ring has sharper corners than the black ring, and the black ring has a dot on it. Near as I can tell from comparing pistons out of old engines, the black ring with the dot is the lower compression ring. I looked at piston rings out of two engines I have here, both have a dot only on the lower compression ring and the lower compression ring has a larger end gap compared to the upper ring. The new rings didn't come with any instructions. Manual says chamfered edges up but doesn't give any info on which ring is top and second. Which ring do you think would be the top compression ring?

 

 

 

Second is the pistons- These are new pistons and they don't have a heat dam. I know that pistons with a heat dam, the dam faces away from the cam side of the block. Can these new pistons be installed in either direction?

 

Any insight, opinions and help are appreciated!

[Sniper]

Later ring sets had a chrome top ring and a cast second ring, IIRC. 

 

As for the pistons, I think the manufacturer could answer that.  Usually if there is a direction required there is some sort of marking for you to use in order to orient the piston properly.

[Andydodge]

I have always understood that the "dot" on piston rings indicates that the "dot" faces the top of the bore or piston.........I'm no expert but that what I know the dot to mean..............andyd

[TravisL17]

@Sniper - After you mentioned the one ring possibly being chrome it made a lot more sense. I called the parts supplier that I purchased from and they clarified that the black ring is chrome and goes on top. Also said the new style pistons can be put in either direction since there is no heat dam. Thanks for the help, its appreciated. 

[TravisL17]

I realized today that I should have provided an update on this thread, so here it is.

As of September 23 the Meadowbrook is back up and running. I've put a bit over 300 miles on it and so far so good. I've had a couple minor coolant leaks around the t-stat housing and upper rad hose, nothing that a bit of tightening didn't solve. I do have a core plug seeping that I will address, likely in the spring.

At first I had some blue smoke in the exhaust when snapping the throttle and on acceleration. That has since cleared up with drive time allowing the rings to seat. I assume the rough hone finish and chrome rings made for slow seating.

As far as measurents go, everything is outside of spec. Cylinder taper, out of round, ring end gaps, valve guide wear, and rod bearing clearance all outside of spec. I figure this will be a good test of how forgiving these engines are. After running a hone through the cylinders and cleaning up the deck I can say with certainty this engine had water in cylinders 3 and 4 at one point and was stuck. I figure it ran pretty decent before the failure why not do what guys once did in corner service stations. So I proceeded with installing new pistons (came with wrist pins and retainer clips), rings (chrome top ring, cast lower compression and 2 one piece oil rings) and rod bearings. Hone the cylinders and cleaned the block as best I could with the crank still in it. It has a pretty rough looking exhaust valve seat in cyl 3 from corrosion pits. So far I'm happy with the results. Power is up, idles smoother, and most importantly it's back on the road. I'm curious to see how long this "rebuild" lasts. In the mean time I can drive the car, get my truck road worthy and start planning an actual rebuild for the engine that was originally in the car.

Also, kudos to Vintage Power Wagons. I ordered most of the parts from them. Excellent customer service. I had an issue with a part and they made it right, no questions asked. Top notch guys working there.

[greg g]

Thanks for the update.  Enjoy the fruits of your labor.

[RobertKB]

Updates are always appreciated. Thanks.