1934 Plymouth PE 6-volt Starter Question

[knuckleharley]

2 hours ago, Sniper said:

The copper line is actually cupro-nickel, it is easier to bend and form than steel lines as well as more corrosion resistant.  Lots of OEM's use it for brake lines as do I.

 

 

It's also used as brake lines in new cars because you can bend it without it kinking,and it doesn't get stress cracks from bending. 

I use it as brake lines as well as gas lines and oil lines in all my projects.

 

I especially love it for brake lines because there is no worry about a brake line rusting out from outside OR inside with it.

[TodFitch]

1 hour ago, Mac McFarland said:

Does anyone have an idea of the tubing diameter for the 34 Plymouth PE Coupe?  I'll be Googling, but you guys seem to be the experts....

 

1 hour ago, Mac McFarland said:

Found it to be 1/4 inch...also found the 1934-1936 Plymouth Original Master Repair Shop Manual for $99.  Probably well worth it.

Yes, 1/4 inch.

 

From memory (might be faulty) all the tubing for fuel, brake, etc. on my '33 is 1/4 inch.

 

The oil line to the filter is smaller than 1/4 and the return to the crankcase is larger than 1/4. The tap off the manifold for the wiper is smaller than 1/4. But by linear feet the vast majority of metal tubing on the car is 1/4 inch.

[Mac McFarland]

Well, I am back.  so, got the brake line fixed (but probably am going to have to replace all wheel cylinders---system was DRY!  Removed the master cylinder and had to DRIVE the piston out, after using WD-40 and time, (stuck tight)---just ordered the re-build kit. 

So, back to the electrical....Engine cranks, but no spark at first plug.  (power DOES get through the ignition, hence, assuming it goes to/through the coil and also will, at this time, assume the coil is good--even though it may not be---really takes two people to test this, and because of COVID, don't have that luxury at the moment).  But what I CAN do is is replace the plugs --  Following guidance on testing plugs with a multimeter, I got zero resistance on the first plug, so I assume it is bad.  It is a Champion J11C...but no other markings.  I found a champion 5111 J11C plug online, but not sure if it is the same (looks similar)...does anyone know if that plug will work in this six cylinder 34 Plymouth PE?  If not, a correct one?  (Still waiting on my Shop Manual I ordered a week + ago).

[Sniper]

A J11C is a J11C, the other number is just a newer style part number as well. 

 

Do you have a spark at any plug?  Do you have voltage at the coil - terminal?  Are the points working?

 

Is there a spark coming out of the coil? 

[Dodgeb4ya]

Most likely will need all sleeved cylinders so as not to leak.

[TodFitch]

Agree with @Sniper the 5111 is the modern part number the J11C is the older number. It should work fine in your '34 (its what I am running in my '33). Some folks have had issues with Champion plugs on their newer cars. I tried some AutoLite plugs in mine and was not happy with the result so went back to Champion. Your mileage may vary.

 

With respect to single person trouble shooting the ignition, you can do a lot by yourself under the hood:

• Disconnect the low tension wire that goes from the coil to the distributor points you should be able to measure battery voltage on that wire when the ignition is on. If you have no voltage you have a problem in the ignition switch, the armored cable to the coil or the coil.
• If you do have voltage on that wire then disconnect the high tension wire from the coil to the distributor at the distributor and place it close to the engine block. Then momentarily touch the low tension wire to ground. When you remove the low tension wire from ground there should be a spark between the high tension wire and the block. No spark indicates a bad high tension wire or a bad coil.
• If you have gotten this far then it is time to check the operation of the points. With the low tension wire disconnected, put a continuity tester on the stud where the low tension wire connects, the other end of the tester should be on a good ground. Turn the engine over, the continuity tester should beep each time the points close. If continuous beeping (always grounded) or no beeping (never grounded) then the points are not working properly.
• If there is a steady stream of beeps from the tester, then the points are working (may not be adjusted properly though). Reconnect the low tension wire and perform the spark test between one of the spark plug wires and the engine head. If no spark then the distributor rotor, distributor cap or spark plug wire is bad.
• The engine should be statically timed. I do it with a continuity tester between the low tension connection and ground. First crank the engine over to top dead center (TDC) on the #1 cylinder. On the PE the timing mark should be on the vibration damper. On the 1933 models and the 1934 PF it is a mark on the flywheel near the starter, loosen the cover and rotate it back. With the engine at TDC, rotate the distributor until the points just open (continuity tester stops beeping).

 

[Sniper]

1 minute ago, TodFitch said:

Disconnect the low tension wire that goes from the coil to the distributor points you should be able to measure battery voltage on that wire when the ignition is on. If you have no voltage you have a problem in the ignition switch, the armored cable to the coil or the coil.

 

Disconnect it at the points end, not the distributor end otherwise you will never read any voltage.

 

I have a spare spark plug I will plug into the coil high tension lead and lay on the head.  Beats getting zapped, just in case.

[Mac McFarland]

At TodFitch....  Good explanation(S).  I have watched some YouTubes on coil, cap, points checking, but couldn't QUITE understand a couple points (excuse the pun).

So, today...my list of priorities:

Check low voltage wire (again---I believe I tested yesterday and no voltage). If present, continue below, else track down why. (there IS voltage coming OUT of the ignition switch on a small wire to other dash stuff, but not sure if volts going to coil in encased wire)).

Multimeter each plug (Gonna do this anyway)

If any plug is good, crank engine to see if spark there.

(If there is, problem solved---buy all new plugs ('all'---why not!, of course))

If no spark, do the coil test as you described.

If spark at end of coil wire (removed from distributor), do points test as you described (might be hard with one person)

(I keep saying 'one person'...married, but wife has Parkinsons (and other health issues) so hate to have her come to my basement garage to assist.)

 

Hopefully, it is just "a" (or other # of) bad spark plug.

 

Thx for confirming 5111 J11R is compatible...probably going to order all six anyway.

 

@Sniper...what did you mean disconnect at points end, not distributor?  Wire comes from coil to a stud.  Can only disconnect there (or at coil---which, of course, then I could not do the coil test as Tod described.)

[Mac McFarland]

@Dodgeb4ya, what do you mean 'sleeved'?  are  you suggesting to rebuild each wheel cylinder? ??

[Mac McFarland]

Well, I am trying to test each plug with a MM.  According to one Video, if a plug has an R identifier, it means it has a resister in it and to test using a 20K ohm setting on the MM.  On these plugs I am getting NOTHING.  So, I happen to have a bunch of new plugs for small engines, but they also do not have an R as an identifier.  They TOO show nothing on the MM.

 

So, how do I test these plugs (I'm not at all savvy with MMs---always confuse me).

 

 

[Mac McFarland]

[Plymouthy Adams]

hopefully you are not trying to read the air gap...?

[Mac McFarland]

?  No.....

 

'top' end to electrode post (straight through plug)

 

[Mac McFarland]

I went ahead and ordered the plugs...will probably wait on other stuff before getting back into it (except maybe the coil test)...the ones in the car are old anyway.  Using a multimeter to check CONTINUITY from top to post indicates 3 good, 3 bad...but none produced any readouts under ohms.  So, to eliminate this possible issue, went ahead and ordered all 6.

 

Meantime, I've got brake parts coming in as well.  So, maybe by EOY I'll have some good results.

 

Thanks for all of you who have helped along the way so far.  (Wish I had paid more attention to my Dad when he fixed vehicles on the farm!  BTW, he rebuilt, from parts from everywhere, starting with a portion of the body of his very first car  he found in an old dump in the mountains near where he lived, his 1930 Ford Roadster.  Never registered it, but it ran and everything worked on it.  He gave it to me many years ago...unfortunately, it burned completely when my house burned down in 2005 (along with an RV, a tractor and various other things I had in the basement garage).

 

 

[Dodgeb4ya]

4 hours ago, Mac McFarland said:

@Dodgeb4ya, what do you mean 'sleeved'?  are  you suggesting to rebuild each wheel cylinder? ??

To be sure of no leakage of brake fluid on the new brake linings ...yes have the cylinders sleeved unless you can find new.

Usually all old cylinders will have a ring of tiny deep pits mainly at the bottom of the wheel cylinder right where the piston cup lip sits.

Moisture in the brake fluid sits in low areas like mentioned and eats into the cylinder bore.

You can try to hone the pits out.

They are deeper than you think.

A year later you most likely will find leakage coming from the still pitted wheel and or master cylinders.

Sleeving cylinders is costly but so are new linings and all the time

re-doing the brakes a second time.

You might get lucky honing but that's only on nearly pit free used cylinders.

[Sam Buchanan]

I've run into this with aviation plugs. Spec is for a plug to have less than 5K ohm resistance but I've found many plugs that show infinite resistance and still operate perfectly. 

 

This is a big deal since my Lycoming O-320 has eight plugs @ $35......each! Our old cars are a bargain..... ?

[Sniper]

Some plug have an internal auxiliary gap to prevent spark leakage in a fouled plug.  This gap is typically wider than the gap you set so when it fires it'll jump both gaps.  You will never get an ohms reading on those types of plugs, Champion prefaces those part numbers with a U.  A link if you are interested

 

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2505150A/enhttps://patents.google.com/patent/US2505150A/en

[Mac McFarland]

Okay, new plugs came it...no spark.

 

So, I know I have 6V at the ignition switch.  There are three connections on that switch...6volt in, 6 volt out (BUT THERE IS NO WIRE CONNECTED TO THAT POST!) and an encased wire going to the coil.  The picture below shows the coil with a small wire (red) coming out going to base of distributor along with the distributor wire going to top of cap.  Question:  Is that small red wire supposed to have voltage when the ignition switch is on?  Mine does not.  If that is the issue, how to fix?  New Coil?  Repair coil?  ?    

[keithb7]

The small red wire from the coil goes to a mechanical switch. When the switch closes 6V voltage goes directly to ground. This switch is also known as “the points”. 

[Mac McFarland]

So, simply checking the voltage on the red wire (without the engine turning to open/close the points) will not result in a 6volt readout...correct?

 

 

[Mac McFarland]

Ok...getting a tiny bit closer....when I put a piece of paper between the points (found while Googling), I DO get a 6V reading on the little red wire.

 

Now, to TEST the coil....

Do I disconnect that little red wire, and then run a wire to the negative terminal on my battery, and then run a lead from that little terminal from which I removed the red wire, and alternately touch a ground point with the lead and watch for a spark between the large coil wire and a close by ground?  It SEEMS that is what I saw on a video, but it was a poor video.

 

What it looked like was by doing that (remove the red wire from the coil terminal, run a jumper from that coil terminal to the battery, AND run a lead from that same coil terminal to temporarily touch (on/off) and then observe for a good spark at the end of the large coil wire (which I have placed relatively close to a point on the cylinder head).

 

I know I'm repetitive there, but is that the way to test this coil?

 

If i can get past this point (and I see sparks), the next step I guess is the distributor/points (which LOOK clean, and not worn, BTW).

 

Wish I were smart.

[Sniper]

When you lift the jumper off the coil terminal that the points are normally hooked to (remember to remove the wire that normally goes there first) and you have the key in run, you should see a spark at the coil output.  Assuming the coil works.

 

If no spark and you've already verified the 6v to the coil, then the coil is bad.

[Mac McFarland]

Why does my coil (image above) only have 1 terminal on it, yet when looking for replacement (in case I eventually determine the coil is bad), I find them with two terminals see below).  If I need one, how to connect?

[Mac McFarland]

5 minutes ago, Sniper said:

When you lift the jumper off the coil terminal that the points are normally hooked to (remember to remove the wire that normally goes there first) and you have the key in run, you should see a spark at the coil output.  Assuming the coil works.

 

If no spark and you've already verified the 6v to the coil, then the coil is bad.

So, the procedure is:  disconnect red wire to distributor.  Take a jumper from the battery to the terminal where that red wire was connected and touch it on and off?

[TodFitch]

3 minutes ago, Mac McFarland said:

So, the procedure is:  disconnect red wire to distributor.  Take a jumper from the battery to the terminal where that red wire was connected and touch it on and off?

No.

 

With the ignition switch on, simply momentarily touch the end of that red wire you disconnected from the distributor to ground. When you remove the wire from ground the coil should generate a spark. Assuming the end high tension wire from the coil is some place near a ground you should see that spark.

 

Background: The red wire connects to the "points". The points are simply a switch that momentarily grounds the red wire. So by momentarily grounding the red wire itself you are simulating the points.

 

With respect to your ignition switch, you mention one terminal has no wires on it. The unused terminal should have a wire to the gas gauge so that the gauge is powered when the ignition is on. But lets ignore that until you get the ignition sorted.