230 Dodge Freeze/Core Plugs

[Cat Whisker]

Sure could use some info for installing convex or dish type freeze plugs in a 1952 Dodge 230 engine. I have plenty of both brass and steel plugs so here goes:

 

1. Of the plugs that I have, both appear to be a tight fit into the clean holes and will need to be driven in with some sealant. Which is the best to use, brass or steel, or does it matter??

 

2. Do they need to be flattened in the center as this one recommends?? http://www.spriteparts.com.au/tech/welch.html

 

Again, many thanks in advance for any assistance.

[Sniper]

If you are using the type plugs shown in your link (domed disc essentially), then yes you need to hit it in the center to properly seat them.

 

If it's a cup type plug then no.

 

I prefer brass myself. 

[Dartgame]

My machinist likes to use jb weld to seal the disc types - which is what I use for that type. For cup type plugs I use permatex #2. I like the cup type where possible to use, they have more contact area for the sealant to do its job.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Dartgame

[Cat Whisker]

9 minutes ago, Sniper said:

If you are using the type plugs shown in your link (domed disc essentially), then yes you need to hit it in the center to properly seat them.

 

If it's a cup type plug then no.

 

I prefer brass myself. 

The plugs that I have, both the steel and the brass are the convex/disk/dish and are just like the ones shown in the link. In the past I have almost always used cup type plugs with a tapered wall a 1/4 inch deep along with some sealant. Many thanks again.

 

[Cat Whisker]

6 minutes ago, Dartgame said:

My machinist likes to use jb weld to seal the disc types - which is what I use for that type. For cup type plugs I use permatex #2.

 

I have both JB weld (blue) and many different Permatex products. I'll go with the JB. Many thanks.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Cat Whisker

[Los_Control]

My two cents .... I first bought cup plugs instead of the flat .... they looked stupid as they hung out of the block 3/16"

So I went back and bought the welsh plugs (convex) I installed them and looked much better.

 

Because the old plugs were installed with the dimple in, I installed new ones same way .... wrong!

You need to install with the dimple out, then when you smack it with your favorite tool, the dimple will be in, and the metal plugs will expand to seal.

 

I bought brass, and after I installed them backwards .... yes they do leak.  I read one persons opinion about not using brass because of dis-similar metals.

When you put brass into the cast iron block, something is going to rot ... since the brass will not, the block will.

Granted, will not happen in my life time. But to help preserve the block for the next generation, for my next and final attempt to install welsh plugs, I bought steel.

Much cheaper and easier to replace the plugs then fix the block.

[Dodgeb4ya]

JB weld and do just like spriteparts.com shows...no dimple cave in the center of the plug....flatten down the plug not too much with a larger flat drift ...say 1" steel drift just as they show.

[desoto1939]

1 hour ago, Los_Control said:

My two cents .... I first bought cup plugs instead of the flat .... they looked stupid as they hung out of the block 3/16"

So I went back and bought the welsh plugs (convex) I installed them and looked much better.

 

Because the old plugs were installed with the dimple in, I installed new ones same way .... wrong!

You need to install with the dimple out, then when you smack it with your favorite tool, the dimple will be in, and the metal plugs will expand to seal.

 

I bought brass, and after I installed them backwards .... yes they do leak.  I read one persons opinion about not using brass because of dis-similar metals.

When you put brass into the cast iron block, something is going to rot ... since the brass will not, the block will.

Granted, will not happen in my life time. But to help preserve the block for the next generation, for my next and final attempt to install welsh plugs, I bought steel.

Much cheaper and easier to replace the plugs then fix the block.

I have heard the same thing regarding using brass and cast iron.  But the person that told me this same thing I asked them a questions that has never been answered.

 

The question is that we all have brass thermostats installed in our cars and also when I was growing u allof the thermostats in the 50-60's were brass.  So sine the brass thermost is constantly surrounded by water and antifreeze why is there not the same issue with brass and cast iron. The thermostat sine in the cast iron head and is surrounded by the cast iron thermostat holder.

 

So why not the same issue.  And most of our cars have been running this system for many years and I have been running this in my 39 Desoto for 30+ years and this is what was originally installed in the car when it car from the factory.

 

I still have the original engine in my car 1939 and the car is 81 years old effect May of this year. It came off the factory assembly line in May of 1939.

 

Does anyone have an answer or reply.  Curious minds would like to know.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[Dodgeb4ya]

Marine engines.....Ace,Royal,Majestic all use brass core plugs.

So do factory Chrysler straight eights...

Brass is not an issue....that's all I have ever used on all jobs.

[Los_Control]

49 minutes ago, desoto1939 said:

Does anyone have an answer or reply.  Curious minds would like to know.

 

I thank you for your question to the public ... I will give my humble reply.

 

While a manager in a bandag retread shop ... and our buffer was down for repairs and mechanic was there to fix it.

I asked mechanic, Why is there such a crappy brass screw block on that shaft, obvious it wears quickly.

 

Mechanic replied, The brass screw block cost $300, The six foot long screw shaft cost $3k ...he asked me which do you want to replace?

 

He then went on to explain that engineers design machinery this way, A sacrificial piece to avoid replacing the prize piece.

 

This is the same attitude I use to the brass plugs and cast iron block today.

 

I may be wrong, but the steel plugs will easily rust out after I am long dead and ashes spread around. The next care taker should have same fun I am having in replacing them.

[Dodgeb4ya]

I've replaced pinholed steel plugs no more than 5 years old.

[Los_Control]

1 minute ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

I've replaced pinholed steel plugs no more than 5 years old.

I certainly plan to live longer then that .... original last over 20 years .... todays china steel you may be right

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

you would have had to be there in person that rainy night, Hill Valley November 12, 1955  

[Ulu]

Isn't this why boats have sacrificial anodes? to keep them from rotting?

I would like the engine not to rot, and just put a sacrificial part on it as dunnage.

But with prestone and distilled water I would expect the solution to prevent problems, for its life.

Permanent coolant isn't , once you run the engine.

 

I recall the rotting freezeplugs on my old Caddy. OMG, that whole car was dunnage.

It rotted away to protect the block.

[Andydodge]

Steel plugs will rust one day, brass ones will not and as for brass affecting the cast iron I think pigs will grow wings before that becomes an issue..........I always replace steel plugs with brass........if brass is an issue why did they use brass/copper for radiators?..........I use a 1/2" drift against the plugs sitting in a nice clean hole with some permatex or similar ......no leakey then.......andyd  

[Sam Buchanan]

We're discussing galvanic corrosion where an electrolyte must be present to promote the corrosion process. Salt water is the environment where galvanic corrosion most commonly occurs and is why boats often have a chunk of zinc attached to the hull as a sacrificial anode to protect the hull or metal fittings in contact with water.

 

A galvanic reactivity chart is often used to predict how likely galvanic corrosion is to occur when two metals are in contact in the presence of an electrolyte. Metals that are close together on the chart are not prone to corrosion---the farther apart two metals are on the chart the more likely corrosion will occur. Here is a chart:

 

https://www.pemnet.com/design_info/galvanic-corrosion/

 

Cast iron and brass are near the middle of the chart so while galvanic corrosion is possible under conditions that promote corrosion, they are not particularly prone to galvanic corrosion. Salt water would certainly increase the probability of corrosion but the modern coolants we use in our old cars are designed to inhibit corrosion. Even though cast iron and steel are next to each other on the chart and aren't going to undergo galvanic corrosion, both are much more reactive to an electrolyte and likely to corrode than brass.

 

Bottom line...I would have absolutely no concerns about using brass plugs in my 218, especially with a sealer between the plug and block. I'll be long gone (and pigs will have wings?) before corrosion of the plugs or damage to the block will disable the engine.

 

(Yep....I used to teach high school chemistry.....)   

Edited April 7, 2020 by Sam Buchanan

[desoto1939]

Sam:  Thanks for your chemistry knowledge.  so it really does not matter brass or the galvanized steel plugs.  Because as I stated all of the thermostats are brass in our cars and most of the older radiators used brass honeycomb style cooling.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

[Sam Buchanan]

Rich, I don't think the material of the plugs will have any significant effect on galvanic corrosion or deterioration of the engine block. However, the steel plugs would be expected to fail due to corrosion sooner than brass plugs because of steel's higher reactivity with an electrolyte. Brass is lower on the galvanic reactivity chart and that is why it is considered to have longer service life.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Sam Buchanan

[Los_Control]

I agree with desoto 1939,  thanks  Sam Buchanan

I think I opened a thread on this once but never really got a solid answer on it.

I may just go ahead and leave my brass plugs in for now. I did put them in dry and they did leak a bit, I think they are no longer leaking at this point.

I have the new steel plugs sitting here on the bench.

 

Maybe is just the little devil in me. I am only the care taker of this truck, preserving it for the next person when I am gone.

I think it would be selfish of me to deny the next care taker the enjoyment of replacing the soft plugs in the future .... ?

[Ulu]

Look at the galvanic chart for aluminum, and you can see it's more reactive to iron than brass is, yet it's the modern choice.

 

[Sam Buchanan]

Unless dissimilar metals are exposed to salt moisture corrosion is more theoretical than practical. In aviation we always have a protective coating of some sort between aluminum and steel in case the aircraft is based near a coastline (aircraft can remain in service for decades). But with our old cars (or even new cars)..........phfffft..........not an issue.      ?

Edited April 7, 2020 by Sam Buchanan

[Los_Control]

I dunno, our one and only job is to bring these vehicles to the next generation.

They are 70 years old now, how can we make them survive another 70 years?

I dunno ... I love ya all, I just do not trust public schools or a public school teacher telling me how to preserve my truck.

[Sam Buchanan]

28 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

I dunno, our one and only job is to bring these vehicles to the next generation.

They are 70 years old now, how can we make them survive another 70 years?

I dunno ... I love ya all, I just do not trust public schools or a public school teacher telling me how to preserve my truck.

 

Actually it was a private school.....good luck trying to rewrite the laws of Chemistry.....   ?

Edited April 7, 2020 by Sam Buchanan

[Los_Control]

15 minutes ago, Sam Buchanan said:

Actually it was a private school.

I thank you and appreciate the efforts you have applied to our kids.

17 minutes ago, Sam Buchanan said:

good luck trying to rewrite the laws of Chemistry.

I have been lied to my entire life, why exactly do you think I should accept what you have been taught and teach?

I apologize to Sam Buchanan

Sam is exactly the person we need to teach our children.

I am the person that yells at the kids to get off my lawn.

 

As far as what we are taught about chemistry ... are you going to tell me next that oil comes from dinosaur bones?

Just saying I have no faith in public schools.

 

[Sam Buchanan]

I respect and defend your right to maintain your truck in whatever manner you wish.....for however long you wish.

 

My input in this thread was in regard to why one metal is less prone to corrosion than others. Please feel free to accept or ignore that information.

 

I'll gladly let the geologists debate the origin of petroleum.....chemists only deal with how best to convert oil into noise.   ?