New Car Day! 1938 P6 Plymouth Deluxe

[westaus29]

Hi Keith, great to see you out and about in the 38, makes me jealous as we are in lockdown and the 38 is in pieces. Must get back to posting more on the rebuild.

 

I enjoyed your note about the fuel pump problems. Cant imagine why you would get vapour lock, considering your location and the time of year (I spent 7 years in Northern Ontario so know a bit about cold weather!). My 55 Plymouth was always hard to start after not using it for a week or so. Would need to turn it over for at least 30 sec before it would fire. Replaced fuel pump with a brand new one, no different. Installed an electric pump on the chassis under the left rear door with push button on dash.Now I just push to prime and she fires up first time, no worries, similar setup to yours. Once running, the mechanical pump is fine. Have just topped up the battery on the 55(and the 29), and may take it for a spin in next week, as restrictions are starting to be lifted here. We have been very fortunate in WA, at last there is an advantage in living 3000 km from civilisation as the Eastern Staters call it.

[keithb7]

Thanks for your comments @westaus29. I can't understand the vapor lock thing either. I cannot prove it is vapor lock. I can tell you that when it happens and it won't start, its when the engine is at a good hot temp. When the engine has been shut off and left alone for 15 mins.  When I came back, no fire. As soon as I swap over to the 6V pump, it fires up right away. So I deduce that it is vapor lock. Today I have been using the electric primer for a shot of fuel pressure before I start the car. Hot or cold, it works very well. Seems to me the engine flash up just a little bit quicker. Maybe it's my enthusiastic imagination. So far, so good.

[Merle Coggins]

When it wouldn't start did you try giving a bit of throttle? Your symptom very  much resembles the normal hot start issue caused by fuel peculation in the carburetor. This causes a flooding issue. Usually giving 1/4 to 1/2 throttle while cranking will get it fired up. I have to wonder if the fuel pump swap is just a coincidence of the time delay. Your starting attempts would have brought in some air, but not enough to over come the over rich condition in the manifold. Then another pause while you tinker around... Then upon the next try more gas has evaporated inside the manifold and it will now start. 

A properly operating carburetor would allow the engine to start and run for several seconds on the gas in the float bowl, even if the pump wasn't pumping. 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Merle Coggins

[Worden18]

Keith, my car suffers from fuel percolation despite having a multi-layered aluminum heat shield, and a pertronix kit with a 40,000v coil.  In those un-magic moments after engine shut off when you know there's going to be trouble restarting, I push the accelerator all the way down and let it crank... she's always fired up.  Same as Merle just mentioned, but full throttle in my case.

[keithb7]

Thanks for your feedback folks. I have tried multiple methods, when its hot and won't start. Described here:

 

 Key on. Starter only. No fuel. No go...Next try  Lightly depressing the throttle while continuing to crank. No go. Stop. Wait a sec.  Next Give a partial shot of the fuel throttle. Start cranking engine. No go. Mash the throttle to the floor while cranking. No go.  Another couple pumps of the gas pedal while cranking. No go. I figure it's flooded now if it was getting any fuel. Floor the pedal and leave it there wide open while cranking. No go. Battery is starting to slow down just a tad.  Stop, swap fuel line over to electric. Prime system. Turn on key, hit starter and it fires up immediately and runs good.

 

It should be noted that a new technique had to be mastered! Holding the starter button down with same foot that has to work the gas pedal. Lol. 

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by keithb7

[Merle Coggins]

2 hours ago, keithb7 said:

It should be noted that a new technique had to be mastered! Holding the starter button down with same foot that has to work the gas pedal. Lol. 

 

 

It gets easier over time. Toe on the starter pedal, heal on the gas pedal. 

[keithb7]

A sight I’ve never seen. A friend took this one as I drove by.  Tail lights are working well!

 

 

[T120]

On 5/18/2019 at 7:04 PM, casper50 said:

Very nice.  There was a 35 Plymouth 5 window coupe at the car show that I went to today.  Had a 350 in it though.  too bad.

Started reviewing this thread today , and I had missed the message in your reply...

[keithb7]

Today was a big day for both of my  old cars. My son wanted both of my old cars in his wedding.  Was a great day for all. Last night the old aaoogha horn packed it it. Oh no! We wanted it working as it was a mix of a drive-in type wedding.  
 

I pulled the brushes out and hand sanded everything clean. It worked real well after and the horn is producing tones better than ever. 
 

 

[Worden18]

1 hour ago, keithb7 said:

Today was a big day for both of my  old cars. My son wanted both of my old cars in his wedding.  Was a great day for all. Last night the old aaoogha horn packed it it. Oh no! We wanted it working as it was a mix of a drive-in type wedding.  
 

I pulled the brushes out and hand sanded everything clean. It worked real well after and the horn is producing tones better than ever. 
 

 

Looking good man!?

[JerseyHarold]

Congrats to your son and his bride, and to you and you wife as well.

[lepic56]

WOW what a great way to start the month of may..

 To the newly wed,,  "Wishing you a lifetime of love and happiness."

And Congrats to the parents of both famillies,, 

What a excellent ways to used our old cars,,  everybody is in a festive mood and love older Mopar ..

I used my 51 once ,, so far, for a 25th wedding anniversary , and we were suppose to drive our grand-daughter for her high-school graduation party.. but because of Covid-19,,  it all cancelled or report to an other date,,

 

[Tim Larson]

Congratulations all around!

[keithb7]

Lately I have tweaked with the carb a bit. I have noticed when pulling the hill home, while under a good load, gas pedal pretty well to the floor. Holding steady at about 30 MPH in 3rd, the engine has bucked a few times in the past week or so. At that point I figure the carb is pouring in, all the fuel it can deliver . Max torque the engine can produce probably. The next few times it happened, I gave a flip of the switch for the electric fuel pump, it cleaned up and the engine pulled hard again. On another trip up the hill again I randomly hit the switch on the electric pump to proactively assist. There was no bucking at all then. So I figured it was probably a fuel delivery problem. Maybe something in the needle and seat? Maybe the float set too low? Unable to keep up with the steady demand for more fuel on the hill? On the flats, around town driving, there is zero problems.

 

Yesterday I took the carb apart and set the float a little lower. Cleaned the bowl up again. Checked all. Looked good. Needle valve good.  Reassembled and test drove. 3-4 trips up the hill home and no more bucking. No assistance from the electric pump used. I might have solved it.  However I suspect the A/F may be slightly rich now. When I hit the accelerator from idle, in gear, there is a brief lag. Maybe about 1 second, then it accelerates fine. That symptom was not present before. I am thinking maybe I need to go back in and just raise the float a teeny bit. I am thinking the engine is a little rich, it bogs for that brief second. Then the engine cleans up and revs normally.  It only does this just off idle. Maybe I could back off my accelerator pump a just a little too? Hmm... We'll see. More experimenting to come. Your comments and experience are always welcome. The hill home is like having my own testing ground lol. It exposes every little thing that needs to be addressed.

 

My Son behind the wheel here in the pic. I think I get as much, or more enjoyment seeing him drive the car, as I do driving it myself.

Edited May 5, 2020 by keithb7

[keithb7]

Thanks for the well wishes guys. Appreciated.

@tjlarson88  @lepic56 @JerseyHarold @Worden18

[keithb7]

 

[Worden18]

34 minutes ago, keithb7 said:

 

Sweet!  Congrats man.  I went backwards with my exhaust when I blew out the muffler ?

Yours sounds great and looks good.  Have fun ?

[lepic56]

12 hours ago, Worden18 said:

Sweet!  Congrats man.  I went backwards with my exhaust when I blew out the muffler ?

Yours sounds great and looks good.  Have fun ?

HI Worden 18,

that could be  you're next story,,  new muffler day!  lol

And yes it sound great,, Keithb7 , I should video my car exhaust with engine running,,  it does sound different on film than in reallity ,, isn't it??  but that's me,,,

keep up the good work and the topic..

[keithb7]

I’ll consider my first ever attempt at this an unsupervised lesson. I’m back in the tranny again to seal up the countershaft this time. 
 

While I’m in there I wanted to check a few things. I reassembled the tranny with new countershaft washers but I did not check it for final clearance  Doing that now. 
 

I felt something was not quite right. All gears worked. I’m hearing little rattles under certain conditions. A few people here helped with ideas on tranny alignment.  I got thinking about all the rear motor mount problems folks have mentioned here.
 

 I kept my old removed rear mounts. Below here is a comparison pic. 1” original height. Aftermarket 1.1219” measured.  Enough to cause a problem? We’ll see. I’m going to put the originals back in for a trial. 

Gaskets, seem to me I should have sprayed them with Permatex Copper gasket spray. I’m doing that this time around. 
 

The gears and synchro all looked good. Oil clean. 300 miles on it since I rebuilt it. 
 

I’ll reassemble and report back. 
 

This time around the total tranny removal time from drivable, down to the seat, floor pan and tranny out was about 1 hr this time.  Fun stuff! My ½” drive electric impact removed the main output nut, tranny on the floor, instantly. No problem. 

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by keithb7

[keithb7]

Looking at my clutch gear set all teeth seem sharp and intact. On the mating pinion gear and 2nd gear mating collars too. 
 

Where does wear show in the clutch gear? I don’t see it. Inside where the balls and springs are? 
I’m just curious as I get to enjoy another look at it. Thx. 
 

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by keithb7

[keithb7]

I did some more reading and looked at my tranny closer again. I think I can answer my own question here about clutch gear wear. See the little brass squares in the pic above? These contact the cone shaped ramp on the adjacent gear. As the sliding synchro ring slides toward the neighbouring gear, the brass area rides up the ramp. As it engages, it speeds up or slows down, to match the rotating speed of the adjacent gear that it is engaging. My brass squares are worn pretty good. Then the speed does not match as well as it should. Then the gears grab and grind a little when they engage. This synchro is only used in gears 2 and 3.

 

I found a new,  original Chrysler, still in the box clutch gear assembly on Ebay today for $80. Seemed like deal to me. My tranny getting a new synchromesh.  The ramp area on the adjacent gear is the shiny polished ring seen in the pick below. The green arrow pointing at it. I think I am on the right track here. Your comments are welcome. Thanks.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by keithb7

[westaus29]

If you decide to disassemble the synchro to clean and lube it, the notes below are available on Vanpeltsales website. They specialise in Ford and I have wondered whether the parts are interchangeable as they look identical. The process is simple but needs care to avoid losing bits.

 

[keithb7]

Thanks @westaus29. That's the best explanation I have seen yet for servicing a synchromesh. I have placed an order for a NOS synchromesh complete assembly. When it arrives and is installed, I will proceed to disassemble my worn synchromesh. To learn and better understand its function and assembly.

 

My current plan of action is replacing the pilot bushing. Also I will attempt to check bell housing alignment with the crank. I think I have a spare pinion I can use to insert into the pilot bushing, then mount my dial indicator to. There is a chance it is out of alignment. The engine was swapped so it could be out. I'll see what I can mock up to work for an accurate reading.

[westaus29]

The bell housing locates with two pegs and should not be any alignment issues. I have done several 201 flathead engine/bell housing swaps, from the original P6, to the T series engine that I ran for many years, to the replacement P6 I am putting in now.

[JusticeBuford]

Hi there. I hit you up on YouTube the other day. Thanks for recommending this group. Where are you going for parts for this vehicle right now. I ordered some Manuals off of ebay. Waiting for those to show before I get too far into something I cant come back from