stupidest thing I've ever seen

[thebelvedereman]

 so I added another Mopar to the collection this week, nicest New Jersey car I've seen in a long time, rock solid, the guy started it up and ran it for an hour for me everything started and looked good, had it towed home yesterday, started messing with it today, the car is all original and still has the 6 volt system, looking at the battery I noticed that the positive side is going to the starter not to the block as a ground like it should be, then I noticed that almost everything is rewired under the dash and under the hood, it looks like the idiot before me couldn't figure out why it wouldn't start with the Positive hooked up to the starter motor so he  rigged everything, I wondered why the amp gauge was reading backwards and the gas gauge and other gauges besides the oil pressure don't work, I'm not sure if I should leave it like that for now and rewire the thing over the winter, or if I should try and figure it all out now, now I have a dumb question, shoudnt the starter motor turn backwards if the current is going into it backwards ??????

Edited July 30, 2018 by thebelvedereman

[Reg Evans]

If I were you the first thing I would do would be to edit out the racial term from your post.

[thebelvedereman]

Nothing racist about it, but fixed just for you, everybody tries to make something out of nothing these days

[Reg Evans]

PS....really nice car !

 

[kencombs]

Nope, starter rotation is the same with either polarity.  Now, later permanent magnet motors may change with polarity, but not a brush type.

[thebelvedereman]

 well I just talked to the previous owner, and he said he took the distributor out to change the points, I asked him why he took it out to change the points and he said because it was much easier than trying to change them in the car, and when he did he saw the wire from the distributor was going to the negative side of the coil, , so he changed the wiring, and he also put a new battery in it at the same time, but he's never worked on a Dodge before, that he's a Chevy guy, and he had no idea that it was positive ground, he swears that's all he did, he said he bought it from the original owner, and then changed his mind about owning it, so in reality I'm guessing he was just a car flipper, and bought it on the cheap and then sold it to make a profit, without knowing anything about the car, but there are all kinds of wires cut in to the original wiring under the dash, so I'm going to switch the battery back the way it should be, and put the coil back the way it's supposed to be, see what happens and hope for the best for now

[plymouthcranbrook]

My 52 Plymouth was switched when I bought it and all I did was reverse the wires to the correct setup and I believe I also had to polarize the generator. All was good after that. Started and ran ok but I wanted it the correct wiring.

[thebelvedereman]

 yeah mine starts and runs Perfect to, it's actually one of the best and smoothest running flat heads that I've ever had, but it just had some weird things going on like the lights were extra weirdly bright unlike any 6 volt that I've ever seen, none of the gauges work except the amp meter and that reads backwards when you step on the gas it goes lower into the negatives instead of going higher but the lights get brighter LOL, and the radio only buzzes, I get no stations or anything so I don't know if it's fried or not, and also the electric choke doesn't work, but I'm not sure if that's because it's wired backwards or it just doesn't work

Edited July 30, 2018 by thebelvedereman

[Phil Martin]

 

When I bought my Dodge I noticed a wire unhooked on regulator. Then saw the battery was hooked backwards. Some people just don't know about positive ground.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Phil Martin

[dpollo]

Ford and Chrysler and many other cars especially those made in England used positive ground systems.  From an engineer's standpoint it may have been superior.

Telephone systems were also positive ground.   If you want your car to run at its best, return it to what its engineers intended.   

As mentioned above, Starters are not sensitive to polarity  or even voltage within limits.   Generators can easily be repolarized in seconds by running a clip lead from the  battery terminal of the regulator to the armature terminal.  A few sparks and it is done.

As North American cars changed to 12 volts, they followed GM 's lead and went to negative ground more likely for standardization of accessories like radios than any other reason.

Many British cars and tractors used positive ground into the 70s.  This had no bearing on their notoriously unreliable electrical systems where LUCAS was known as the Prince of Darkness.

.... why do Englishmen drink warm beer..... they have  Lucas refrigerators.   and just to be fair to Lucas systems they were far more complicated than they really needed to be.  Hence the adage Simplicity is the hallmark of Good Engineering.

[Wiggo]

10 hours ago, dpollo said:

.... why do Englishmen drink warm beer..... they have  Lucas refrigerators.   and just to be fair to Lucas systems they were far more complicated than they really needed to be.  Hence the adage Simplicity is the hallmark of Good Engineering.

 

On the other hand, we have one that runs: "Why do the Americans have their beer so cold? So you can tell the difference between beer and piss..."

 

But I did also see a gravestone that read, "RIP J Lucas - father of the intermittent wiper."

[DrDoctor]

   Our ’46 Plymouth Special deluxe club coupe was rewired 6v neg ground prior to our acquiring it. Everything worked fine, except the radio—it was toast due to its being grounded thru it’s casing, and the reversed polarity—now we’ve got a burnt lump that was once a radio. The ammeter also functioned backwards, but since the insulation was flaking off of the wiring virtually throughout the car. I rewired it with a Ron Francis harness, keeping it 6v neg ground. Everything works just fine. The ammeter's mechanicals went to the local landfill, and I used its faceplate on a new volt gauge. As for the headlights—I replaced the dimmer 6v units with quartz-halogen sealed beam units—much brighter, and they draw less amps. Everything’s fine now, so . . . it ain’t broke anymore, and therefore, I ain’t fixin’ it.

Edited July 31, 2018 by DrDoctor

[Dan Hiebert]

When we got our D24, the battery was hooked up backwards as well.  It was "interesting" to hear the owner of lot we bought it from cuss up a blue streak about how stupid the PO from them was for hooking the battery up backwards (as in correctly).  At the time, I knew nothing of positive ground systems, and apparently neither did he.  Nothing worked right, but the car would run - sort of.  Once we got a service manual for it and I realized the error of my ways, simply hooking the battery up right solved a lot of the tertiary issues, with no permanent damages.  Nice find with your D24, excellent that these cars are still available out there. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

poor ole Lucas, he catches hang for all those car companies that insisted on wooden dashes because they did not know how to make a curved fascia.  The grounds are daisy chained and the wood shrinks after time, the connections get flakey and he gets cussed.  A minute of understanding the whys could easily prevent the whines.  I have to admit in the day of plastic cars the daisy did not continue but the number of common tie points did increase.  Check them grounds if  you play with these LBCs.  I am not in no manner ruling it all out to grounds, some of the stuff they used were very light duty manufactured to begin with, their switches would not meet grade for many flashlights.

[Dartgame]

We used to call Lucas - luckless.

[linus6948]

"well I just talked to the previous owner, and he said he took the distributor out to change the points, I asked him why he took it out to change the points and he said because it was much easier than trying to change them in the car"

 

If I`m not mistaken the service manual calls for the points to be serviced with the distributor removed and as one who has done it in the past more than once without pulling it.

I would have to say in hindsight that pulling the distributor is the best way to go, so much easier and much less cussing.

[Plymouthy Adams]

some folks just can't handle prosperity

[thebelvedereman]

 I buffed out the rest of the car today and it shined up really nice, it had a ton of oxidation from sitting in the garage for 20 plus years

[thebelvedereman]

 well I switched all the wiring back the way it was supposed to be, and eliminated all his extra wiring, and changed the polarity on the generator, now the amp gauge reads correctly unfortunately the fuel gauge still doesn't work, so either the gauge got fried from being reversed, or it may be just a simple wiring issue or needs sending unit, I'll check that all out tomorrow, unfortunately also I think the Caps got fried in the radio, it still Powers up, but just buzzes, eventually I'm going to have to rewire the whole car because the insulation is completely gone on the wiring, but it does start and run and charge and the lights work

[Adam H P15 D30]

FWIW, I have changed every old car I've ever owned to 12v NEG ground.  The manufactures wised up and did it in the 50's, I can use off the shelf components, Battery cables are easy to find, it starts easily cold or hot, Headlights are bright even if you have a crappy connection.

I don't see a down side, unless you're going for a concourse queen.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Adam H P15 D30

[Adam H P15 D30]

13 minutes ago, thebelvedereman said:

 well I switched all the wiring back the way it was supposed to be, and eliminated all his extra wiring, and changed the polarity on the generator, now the amp gauge reads correctly unfortunately the fuel gauge still doesn't work, so either the gauge got fried from being reversed, or it may be just a simple wiring issue or needs sending unit, I'll check that all out tomorrow, unfortunately also I think the Caps got fried in the radio, it still Powers up, but just buzzes, eventually I'm going to have to rewire the whole car because the insulation is completely gone on the wiring, but it does start and run and charge and the lights work

Gas gauge doesn't care about polarity.  

[Plymouthy Adams]

well, other than the faulty grounds strung across the wooden dash and the cheaply made toggle switches, Lucas really has never given me much cause for concern.   I still have 15 English cars on the place...with stock wiring for the most part.  Have seen very little need to upgrade these.  Of course 4 of these cars came stock with American V8's with a number of Americanized components..zoom zoom

[Adam H P15 D30]

Sorry Tim, I deleted my post because I didn't want to come off as a smart a__.  I don't think Lucas made any electrical component that wasn't garbage.  I've rewired lots of Jags.

[Plymouthy Adams]

I will give you someLucas having problems, so many complaints could not come off as unfitting to some degree.  I have never messed with the Jags...but could imagine they could be an electrical nightmare based on the Jensen Interceptors I own.  Their wiring so far has been ok but then I will admit I have not tore much into one of them but the manner in which the harness is routed and all the hidden inline fuses, if you do not  have the service book you would be forever trying to find a burnt fuse.   I mainly have messed with the smaller cars like Triumphs, MG, Austin and Sunbeam Tigers...these are very simple cars.

[thebelvedereman]

53 minutes ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

FWIW, I have changed every old car I've ever owned to 12v NEG ground.  The manufactures wised up and did it in the 50's, I can use off the shelf components, Battery cables are easy to find, it starts easily cold or hot, Headlights are bright even if you have a crappy connection.

I don't see a down side, unless you're going for a concourse queen.

 I might eventually convert to 12 volt, I'm definitely not a Concours guy, but it has a brand new battery, brand new points plugs wires not that plugs and wires matter conversion wise, and like I said most of the wires are bare because the insulation crumbled off, so I definitely don't want to be running 12 volts through the existing wiring, I shouldn't even really be running 6 volts LOL