Brakes Debate Thread

[dpollo]

On my first 50 Plymouth ( ten by two)  I had some problems with  fade but at that time I was inclined to drive too fast . I had bought a 54 Plymouth which had been a police car and it had eleven inch brakes. I put these on the 50.  No more problems.  I could have obtained the  same eleven inch equipment from a "big" Dodge or Desoto or  Chrysler Royal.   Today, (50 years later) I find the original ten by twos to be adequate as long as the lining is not too hard.  In changing the front brakes  it is necessary to use the matching spindle which, since the steering arm is moved downward, a toe in adjustment is needed. 

[jeffsunzeri]

Interesting topic with a lot of emotion involved, rightly so when smashing into things is at stake!

The MoPar brakes as supplied in our Plymouths, Dodges and Chryslers are superior to their contemporaries. The double-leading shoe and well matched drum diameters to the vehicle made them better than the competitors.

With today's far superior lining material, the drum brake system, properly maintained, is pretty hard to beat.

Some facts about drum brakes:

- No brake dust on wheels

- Drum brakes are self actuating so they have a great pedal feel.

- Drums are lighter than discs. Calipers are much heavier than wheel cylinders, and the brake surface area of a drum brake shoe is much larger than a disc pad.

- There is a company that will drill your drums with all of the same benefits of drilled disc brake rotors.

- Most big trucks use 4 wheel drum brakes

What bothers me about the disc conversion that some do, is that it is highly doubtful that the owner/mechanic has the engineering expertise to properly set up the disc system. Factory engineers spend a lot of time balancing pedal effort, proportioning, and choosing size and type of discs. Brake systems also affect other components such as suspension and steering... A lot to consider.

It's pretty certain that some of those folks who install disc systems (you do install a whole system, right?) are going from poorly maintained junk to new components and lots of labor replacing hoses and lines, so comparison to the drum system may not be valid.

Edited March 30, 2017 by jeffsunzeri
Adding some info...

[ptwothree]

I once converted a '68 camaro from front drum to disk and here's what I noticed.  

Hot or cold, rain or shine these brakes just flat out work better then drums.  You could actually stop the car after getting them wet.  The car felt like it had an improved sense of tracking straight down the road.  I'm pretty sure it's because the mass of the disk brakes is moved toward the center line of the car.

Also, from experience, drum brakes and high speeds don't mix.  Now,  having said all this, I too will probably convert the '52 to disk brakes when the drums need an overhaul. 

[classiccarjack]

4 hours ago, ptwothree said:

I once converted a '68 camaro from front drum to disk and here's what I noticed.  

Hot or cold, rain or shine these brakes just flat out work better then drums.  You could actually stop the car after getting them wet.  The car felt like it had an improved sense of tracking straight down the road.  I'm pretty sure it's because the mass of the disk brakes is moved toward the center line of the car.

Also, from experience, drum brakes and high speeds don't mix.  Now,  having said all this, I too will probably convert the '52 to disk brakes when the drums need an overhaul. 

I once owned GM stuff(that is how I began my car fetish back in 1985), and I will be hated for saying this, but they had the worst drum brakes out there.  The only GM cars that stopped were the Buicks and Cadillac's....  I had a Camaro, well several actually, all predating 1974, and none of them ever stopped as good my 1973 Plymouth Cuda 340 did.  I believe that your statement is true mostly because all the 4 wheel drum brake Chevrolet's I owned barely stopped.  But my Cadillac's, well, two foot a 1964 Coupe DeVille, and your face is into the windshield.  Just like a 1964 Chrysler will do to you.

This is from my personal experience, not an opinion...

I drove a 9 inch 4 wheel drum 1969 Valiant 4 Door for 8 years.  Never once had issues stopping.  But I sure did heat crack those poor shoes!  LOL

 

[55 Fargo]

13 hours ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

For some reason looking for "free and cheap" brake parts doesn't seem like the best idea to me????

Well you ain't me....LOL I do whats best at the time, not saying it's best every time....LOL

All I am saying is you do not need a disc brake conversion for decent brakes, not saying its better or because I think 1 way so should you...

[Adam H P15 D30]

19 hours ago, Rockwood said:

Well you ain't me....LOL I do whats best at the time, not saying it's best every time....LOL

All I am saying is you do not need a disc brake conversion for decent brakes, not saying its better or because I think 1 way so should you...

Unfortunately "decent" brakes don't cut it where I live.  I drive 5-7 thousand miles per year in the worst traffic in the US at 70 MPH, brakes need to be top notch always, not just after each adjustment.  I guess geographical location plays a big part when choosing disc brakes or not.

[55 Fargo]

52 minutes ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

Unfortunately "decent" brakes don't cut it where I live.  I drive 5-7 thousand miles per year in the worst traffic in the US at 70 MPH, brakes need to be top notch always, not just after each adjustment.  I guess geographical location plays a big part when choosing disc brakes or not.

No I agree, and places like Winnipeg Manitoba, or Fort Wayne Indiana are cow towns....LOL compared to your metropolis.

I know Tod Fitch used to live in your are, and drove his stock 33 Plymouth everywhere....

[TodFitch]

52 minutes ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

Unfortunately "decent" brakes don't cut it where I live.  I drive 5-7 thousand miles per year in the worst traffic in the US at 70 MPH, brakes need to be top notch always, not just after each adjustment.  I guess geographical location plays a big part when choosing disc brakes or not.

Having recently moved from the Bay Area to the southern fringes of the Los Angeles metroplex, I my opinion is that LA has worse traffic than SF.

In the SF area it is pretty easy to get to the back roads of the Santa Cruz Mountains, across the Golden Gate Bridge to Marin County, the East Bay hills or even the Central Valley where you can slow down and enjoy the drive on secondary roads. Much harder to do that where I am now, there is only one way out of town that does not involve miles of urban/suburban stop light infested roads or at least an hour on a freeway going 75 or 80 MPH. Unless it is "rush hour" in which case nothing on the surface streets or freeways average much over 10 to 15 MPH.

On the other hand, I do get to spend some time on the beach everyday and, unlike anyplace north of Big Sur, the water is usually warm enough that you can think about going in.

[dale]

I had a new 1964 Pontiac Bonneville and if you had to stop quickly at say around 60 mph and up you could forget it.  Slowed down some and then nothing.  I had disc brakes on my British bicycle back in the 50s so why did it take so long to make its way onto cars ?

[55 Fargo]

57 minutes ago, dale said:

I had a new 1964 Pontiac Bonneville and if you had to stop quickly at say around 60 mph and up you could forget it.  Slowed down some and then nothing.  I had disc brakes on my British bicycle back in the 50s so why did it take so long to make its way onto cars ?

While disc are great and the manufacturers have adopted them fora lot of reasons, this does not mitigate the fact that well maintained and adjusted drum brakes are very good.

Now your old GM, not sure why it was such a problem, did you ever change the shoes?...LOL

I have had some 60s chevys, not so bad for braking, do not recall a big problem. Sister had a 1960 Pontiac wouldn't stop worth a crap, but with out of size drums and no brake lining what do you expect.

The company up here, Quality Brake and Clutch relines shoes with a Kevlar, and it's not too hard, and they are great.

Dale you like a diac brake conversion, no problem, maybe you could not or did not achieve decent drum brakes, no big deal.

Some of you guys need to read Jeff Sunzeris post, this man lays it out on the line, with regard to disc brake conversions, and drum brakes not being a system thats hit and miss.....get hit hit and miss.......LOL

 

[Feudin_Wagon]

Will have discs all around as soon as I install my Grand Cherokee rear axle. Every single wheel cylinder on my car leaked and the master cylinder was bad. There's no doubt drum brakes work fine for the most part, but I'm not gonna spend any money repairing them. To me that's just throwing good money after bad. Discs are easier to service, work better and I can go to any parts store for parts when the time arrives. And I hate working on drum brakes.

[55 Fargo]

Don Coatney, I see you hit the "Like" button for every disc brake solution, should we all surmise you have disc brakes on your Dodge?

What ever happened to your Plymouth with the Plydo front disc brakes, is it still for sale or is it sold, and is it still  being driven lately?

The new Dodge, is this the car you are keeping, will it get a dual MC and 4 wheel disc brakes too?

Contrary to any speculation, I am not against installing disc brakes on the front of my Fargo, as the drums are at the outer limits, I could get others, but to date the brakes are more than adequate for my traffic environment. I do have some later Dodge drum stuff, too, but not sure how it may work to adpat on the fronts of my truck...

[Don Coatney]

Here is my take on this subject. Years ago my parents had a 1961 Buick and I had a brand new 1971 Duster both cars had drum brakes. One day while driving my parents car I had to attempt to lock the brakes up at around 60 MPH. The tires squealed for about a half second then the brakes faded due to heat and no matter how hard I smashed the pedal I lost all braking ability. I was able to pull a Dale Earnhardt maneuver and avoid a crash. One day in the Duster I had to lock up the brakes at around 75 MPH. All 4 wheels locked and the car was all over the road but I was able to pull a Richard Petty maneuver and avoided a crash. Both of these incidents happened in a small goat sized town in Ohio much smaller than the cow town of Fort Wayne, Indiana. My point being that drum brakes can work and lock up the wheels but brake fade can be a problem. 

On my P-15 I found a disc brake conversion cost about the same as a complete drum brake rebuild but the advantage of disc brakes is replacement parts are available at any auto parts store. The conversion was very easy and the stopping power is far superior. I have had to make a few quick stops in my P-15 with the disc brakes and I am able to control the lock up with pedal pressure and keep the car in a straight line.

All parts required for the disc brake conversion. Grand total around five hundred US cow town bucks.

 

[55 Fargo]

Don I like the Duster, the Buick not so much. When I was 19 YO I had a 72 Duster 340 4 spd, and believe you me, I had plenty of panic stops, and never once had brake fade, to be honest never experienced "brake fade" on any brake system to this day luckily.

My dad had a 1968 Olds Vista Cruiser, with a Rocket 350-4bbl 310 hp, 4100 lbs, add a family of 7 total, holidays all over Canada and the USA, the LA and San Fran Bay area too. That car had fantastic brakes, they were all drum and power, so drum can be very good, disc on the front of this thing possibly could have been better.

I would suggest you slow down Don, and let the rice rockets and cell phone toting soccer moms, take over the fast lanes and be safe, as your new Dodge most likely is not set up for the busy freeways...good luck

[knuckleharley]

12 minutes ago, Don Coatney said:

...My point being that drum brakes can work and lock up the wheels but brake fade can be a problem. 

 

I ain't no engineer,and don't even play one on teebee,but it seems to me reducing heat and brake fade is why disc brakes were invented and are now installed on all new cars.

IF drum brakes were the equal of disc brakes when it comes to shedding heat and remaining effective at stopping cars,why are there no race cars with drum brakes anymore?

Granted,*I* am just as happy with drums on my old cars as I would be with disc brakes,but there are only 4 stop lights in the county I live in,and all are on 4 lane roads you can see from a mile away. Heat build up in my brake system is not one of my major worries.

Having said that,when I am put in the position of having to replace drums,shoes,and wheel cylinders,I will be replacing them with disc brakes.

Except for my restored 31 Plymouth and my all-original 33 Dodge sedan,that is. They are all original and going to stay all original.

[55 Fargo]

25 minutes ago, knuckleharley said:

I ain't no engineer,and don't even play one on teebee,but it seems to me reducing heat and brake fade is why disc brakes were invented and are now installed on all new cars.

IF drum brakes were the equal of disc brakes when it comes to shedding heat and remaining effective at stopping cars,why are there no race cars with drum brakes anymore?

Granted,*I* am just as happy with drums on my old cars as I would be with disc brakes,but there are only 4 stop lights in the county I live in,and all are on 4 lane roads you can see from a mile away. Heat build up in my brake system is not one of my major worries.

Having said that,when I am put in the position of having to replace drums,shoes,and wheel cylinders,I will be replacing them with disc brakes.

Except for my restored 31 Plymouth and my all-original 33 Dodge sedan,that is. They are all original and going to stay all original.

Your right you ain't an automotive engineer, but neither am I or most likely anyone else on this forum.

I would almost guarantee, that safety and superiority of disc over drum, is not a limiting factor, but a whole lot more would be at stake, the latter would be the priority.

Disc brakes, on modern roads, and in modern vehicles, but have they reduced, traffic fatalities, or vehicular damage?

Most likely not, but a collective number or reasons would exacerbate the cause, busier roadways, more traffic, higher speeds the number 1 offender.

The point of the matter is , while disc brakes are 1 system that are very good, it does not automatically assume, that drum brakes cannot also be very good.

It have been quoted, that Big Trucks to this day, run "air drum" brakes, we are talking a lot of weight, and yes going down a mountain grade, any trucker better be geared down and ready.

In all fairness, I have not driven a C series pickup with a front disc brake conversion to compare, my stock front drums and modern self energizing read drums brakes are pretty darn good.

My 47 Chrysler I used to own, with the the stock brakes all rebuilt and set up correctly were darn good brakes too.

The point or underlying element of this thread or any other pro- drum brakes, is not an analysis of disc versus drum , but rather a fact based discussion on drum brake performance when operating at peak efficiency, not old drum brakes, all worn, not adjusted or set up, so these suck so I gotta automatically have disc brakes for a decent braking system.

If you want disc, go ahead, but those who may be researching and reading need not be dissuaded by conjecture, do your homework, and then come to an informed conclusion.

Lockheed brakes, are not always easy to set-up, but do perform well, better than Fords and certainly better than GMs Huck brakes and whole lot of the bendix types too.

Lets face it, panic stops are no fun, and a collision in any of these old cars/trucks, can be fatal or injurious while a modern vehicle it certainly may not.

I actually feel fortunate that traffic and roadways are not crazy busy or super fast in my little ole area of North america, you guys in these huge urban areas with massive amounts of traffic can keep it.....

Edited April 1, 2017 by Rockwood

[55 Fargo]

Hello all, went for a drive tonight, and bootin down the highway, traffic very light, on an older 2 lane, doing 65 ,ph all the way

Thinking about "panic stops" and whatever might present itself rather fast on a highway, even thought about you poor saps that gotta drive on a multi lane mad motorway

So starting to think in an objective way, would my brakes cut it, in those situations, probably not at super fast rates of speed, heck mine won't even keep up with the flow if its 70 plus mph, just not happening.

My truck steers and handles well enough on a smooth highway at 65 mph, in fact rather nicely.

So all the truck guys, and even you car guys, was your front disc brake so much improved, you felt very confident on a busy fast freeway?

 

[martybose]

I was used to upgraded 4 wheel disk brakes on my Honda, so the 47 Plymouth was downright scary the first time I hammered the brakes on the freeway, even though all of the parts were fresh and the shoes had been set with the proper gauge.  The situation was much improved when I switched the front brakes to the ECI disk brakes and the dual master cylinder, but nowhere near as good as the Honda.  So I always left a lot of extra space to have enough room to stop in.

Marty

[Young Ed]

3 hours ago, Rockwood said:

Hello all, went for a drive tonight, and bootin down the highway, traffic very light, on an older 2 lane, doing 65 ,ph all the way

Thinking about "panic stops" and whatever might present itself rather fast on a highway, even thought about you poor saps that gotta drive on a multi lane mad motorway

So starting to think in an objective way, would my brakes cut it, in those situations, probably not at super fast rates of speed, heck mine won't even keep up with the flow if its 70 plus mph, just not happening.

My truck steers and handles well enough on a smooth highway at 65 mph, in fact rather nicely.

So all the truck guys, and even you car guys, was your front disc brake so much improved, you felt very confident on a busy fast freeway?

 

I've had more issues on the 2 lanes than the freeways. Freeway you just stay to the right and let the crazies go around. 2 lane they gotta pass you and that's not always possible as soon as they'd like it

[DJ194950]

21 hours ago, martybose said:

I was used to upgraded 4 wheel disk brakes on my Honda, so the 47 Plymouth was downright scary the first time I hammered the brakes on the freeway, even though all of the parts were fresh and the shoes had been set with the proper gauge.  The situation was much improved when I switched the front brakes to the ECI disk brakes and the dual master cylinder, but nowhere near as good as the Honda.  So I always left a lot of extra space to have enough room to stop in.

Marty

Marty I took a brake check ride with your cars new owner around my neighborhood several days ago and I will testify that  your brake update to front disc and dual bowled master cylinder will throw you into the windshield if not prepared!

My 50 4 dr. will all stock brakes, everything new and adjusted with proper tools and very minor readjustments will Not stop as fast!!  My 50 will lock them up and still not stop as fast as your car did without locking them up!

I am permanently sold on the front discs/dual master change!

I would love to do the same ride/brake test in a 4 wheel disc changeover in a similar car for comparison.

That car runs strong!

DJ

Edited April 4, 2017 by DJ194950

[55 Fargo]

3 hours ago, DJ194950 said:

Marty I took a brake check ride with your cars new owner around my neighborhood several days ago and I will testify that  your brake update to front disc and dual bowled master cylinder will throw you into the windshield if not prepared!

My 50 4 dr. will all stock brakes, everything new and adjusted with proper tools and very minor readjustments will Not stop as fast!!  My 50 will lock them up and still not stop as fast as your car did without locking them up!

I am permanently sold on the front discs/dual master change!

I would love to do the same ride/brake test in a 4 wheel disc changeover in a similar car for comparison.

That car runs strong!

DJ

My 47 Chrysler with stock 11 inch brakes I could put you into the windshield easily.

I do think many drum brake systems stop great and a lot do not especially if worn or out of adjustment.

Once locked up what's the difference, your car with drum brakes skid longer or what.....LOL

I would like to see some actual data, comparing a well maintained stock drum brakes versus disc front and drum rear, that would be interesting.

I remember, Normscoupe, would say when his P15 Coupe had drum brakes, if he took too long to stop he would miss his driveway, but once he added his front disc brakes, the stopping distance was shortened big time. I think his stock brakes were not good, but for what reason.

Last night took my truck out, and at 55 mph I hit the brakes and lock em up, hands off the steering wheel and she remained straight as an arrow, same at 45 mph, stopping distance at 40 mph and lower is no worse than any disc brake I would imagine.

The problem is heat, and gases built up in drums from repeated panic stops etc, once this happens fade begins.

The way you guys talk like your driving 80 mph with 2 car lengths between you and disaster.....LOL an maybe that's what your doing

My brakes, stock up front, but with the single wheel cyls and 10 inch, 11 inch modern bendix style drums in the rear, and Kevlar linings front and rear.

Brake linings, sure can make a difference, for drum brakes, as well as disc.

I am not down on discs, and they have been a part of all modern equipped vehicles for a while now, but this must convert to discs "bandwagon" as soon as someone joins this forum seems odd.

Either a lot of guys cannot or will not set up the stock brakes, either too expensive to find say new drums, the rest is no more money than a disc conversion, and most disc conversion use the cheapest GM calipers going, a lot use Dakota rotors with it.

Are drum brakes safe and reliable? This is  not are drum brakes better than disc, but I do buy into the BS that drum brakes are no good, they are so unsafe (many of drove in death traps for years, along with no seat belts and the kids without bicycle helmets).

I think drum brakes in good working and well maintained condition work great, and are safe, I do not immediately believe I need to absolutely have disc brakes to drive my Old Mopar.

Single jug MCs versus dual MCs, well that's a different movie, and I have lost brakes with dual MCs twice, and it wasn't all that great in either case, but I was driving fairly slow....

[meadowbrook]

My 50 Meadowbrook has original drums and an adapted dual circuit master cylinder as well as new hoses and lines.

They are not as good as a modern car, and require some authority on the pedal to stop, but seem ok for regular driving.

My 65 VW also has drums up front, and stops on a dime. I suppose the lower weight helps.

If fitting discs, don't you need some sort of boost to get a lighter pedal as they are not self energizing? Then again, I suppose the dual cylinder Lockheed system in the dodge also is not self energizing.

But just being disc does not mean more braking power automatically, assuming no fade.

[jeffsunzeri]

Two items that have not been mentioned in this thread so far are vitally important to a modern braking system: Power boost and ABS.

Disc braking systems without power boost and without ABS are no match for even the worst modern braking system.

No doubt, a disc brake has much better potential than a drum system in many applications.

However, any poorly maintained system, disc or drum, is unsafe.

If you've got a properly maintained drum system (or disc) you should be able to do a panic stop from 45 or 50 mph and:

-- lock all 4 wheels, and keep them locked until fully stopped.

-- stop straight ahead.

-- examine the skid marks and determine that all 4 are locked, and most of the braking is happening at the front (biggest pile of rubber dust).

If your system can't pass those 3 items, you are in trouble. No reputable shop would return a car to the customer unless all those items were checked as good.

Another note is that once the wheels are locked, the brakes are done. It's up to your tires and the road surface at that point.

 

[Adam H P15 D30]

13 hours ago, Rockwood said:

SNIP

I would like to see some actual data, comparing a well maintained stock drum brakes versus disc front and drum rear, that would be interesting.

SNIP

See, that's the difference.  I'll bet a well maintained drum system would not stop as well as a disc system that hasn't been looked at for 20k miles the first hard stop.  I'm not even going to talk about the second, third or fourth hard stop in a row.  I don't have the data except for every car manufacturer (ok maybe there is one left in some corner of the planet) moving away from front drum brakes.  Their engineers probably have loads of data for you.

Now let's compare apples to apples....  Drive a drum braked car for 10k miles and do nothing to the brakes, then drive a disc braked car 10k miles and do nothing to the brakes.  Repeat stopping test.  This is more of a real world test.

 

Adam

[meadowbrook]

Can anyone tell me the advantage of Lockheed twin  wheel cylinder front drums? At least a standard drum is self energizing, you lose that with Lockheed