Running straight water in rad?

[Fastback50]

Okay, still sorting out why my car is making epic clouds of exhaust that smells like coolant.  Due to the fact that this smell makes me ill with nausea (and probably my neighbors too), I am wondering if it's possible to just run straight water.  My thinking is that it would tell me whether or not I was just burning off residual coolant in the system from the messy head change, or if I really botched my head gasket swap.  I really water doesn't compress, but I would think if that much fluid was spilling through the gasket my engine would have been toasted by now, whether I ran coolant or water.  Currently I'm preparing to take the front clip off and pull all freeze plugs, WTD, and repair/replace the leaking rad.  I really just want to know if this head gasket needs to be replaced again.  No obvious leaks in block, no significant drop in coolant level even after several runs of 10-15 minutes while making huge amounts of coolant-smelling smoke.  Thoughts?

[Los_Control]

Myself, I would run straight water until all coolant issues were repaired.

Water will boil faster then 50/50 antifreeze, but if it is overheating, again is a cooling system issue you need to deal with.

No sense in wasting the antifreeze or allowing it to leak on the ground, where animals could drink the sweet tasting antifreeze and die.

[Fastback50]

1 minute ago, Los_Control said:

Myself, I would run straight water until all coolant issues were repaired.

Water will boil faster then 50/50 antifreeze, but if it is overheating, again is a cooling system issue you need to deal with.

No sense in wasting the antifreeze or allowing it to leak on the ground, where animals could drink the sweet tasting antifreeze and die.

That's sort of what I was thinking, not to mention the fact that I'm inhaling this ****.  Of all automotive chemical odors, this is the one I cannot stomach the odor of.....I know, I know-- I should have a respirator on at all times.   Getting there... 

[pflaming]

Question: when only water is used, should the system be flushed more often? 

[Plymouthy Adams]

would hardly think the man would be in need of flushing while testing if or if not a coolant loss internally is a consideration on his current crisis

[Fastback50]

17 minutes ago, pflaming said:

Question: when only water is used, should the system be flushed more often? 

I was thinking that once the problem is rooted out, replacing the water with modern coolant would erase any ill effects of the water (corrosion, mineral deposits).  At this point it is quite possible I have rust, etc in this block anyway, as it sat for at least 5-8 years, but it did have green coolant in it when I first drained it.  That's why I don't THINK the block is cracked, but who knows.  Either way, the absence of a coolant steam bath will make diagnosis easier/healthier     

 

[Fastback50]

The only reason I can think of that the head gasket did not seal was because I didn't adequately check it for warp.  I'm assuming this is warpage is NOT something that would be visible from the outside correct?  Perhaps I should have used a double sided copper vs. the Felpro?

[Jerry Roberts]

" ... assuming this is warpage is NOT something that would be visible from the outside correct? "   To see if the head or block is warped you would place a straight edge on the surface . So yes , the head would have to be off the engine . You might also look for bubbles when you look into the top of your radiator with the engine running . 

[busycoupe]

There is a chemical that you can use to test if the coolant is contaminated by exhaust gas. It has been at least 30 yrs since I have used it, but as I recall you drew coolant from the radiator and mixed it in a clear tube with the chemical. If exhaust was present the mixture turned color, red I think.  It was a test for a leaking head gasket.  I don't remember the name of the product, but it might be worth inquiring about.

[Merle Coggins]

49 minutes ago, busycoupe said:

There is a chemical that you can use to test if the coolant is contaminated by exhaust gas. It has been at least 30 yrs since I have used it, but as I recall you drew coolant from the radiator and mixed it in a clear tube with the chemical. If exhaust was present the mixture turned color, red I think.  It was a test for a leaking head gasket.  I don't remember the name of the product, but it might be worth inquiring about.

A coolant combustion gas tester will pull the air from the top of the radiator, not coolant, and run it through a special fluid that will change from blue to yellow when carbon dioxide is present. It's a handy tool to have, even though I don't use it very often.

[Bobacuda]

Coolant smelling, white vapor is at a minimum a head gasket leak.  Is your oil milky?  Did you have the head checked to see if it needed milling?  I have never had any problems with a FelPro head gasket.  Did you put any gasket cement (like Indian Head Gasket Shellac) on it, specifically around the water passages?

Last time I went through this, I had to have the head milled (minimal amount), then I used Indian Head on a FelPro head gasket, torqued it all down according to specs, worked great.

As my old man said, "If it wasn't frustrating, it wouldn't be much of a hobby."

 

[Fastback50]

2 hours ago, Bobacuda said:

Coolant smelling, white vapor is at a minimum a head gasket leak.  Is your oil milky?  Did you have the head checked to see if it needed milling?  I have never had any problems with a FelPro head gasket.  Did you put any gasket cement (like Indian Head Gasket Shellac) on it, specifically around the water passages?

Last time I went through this, I had to have the head milled (minimal amount), then I used Indian Head on a FelPro head gasket, torqued it all down according to specs, worked great.

As my old man said, "If it wasn't frustrating, it wouldn't be much of a hobby."

 

Bob, part of the "mystery" is that my oil looks fine--very clean and not green or like a milkshake.  Plus, no bubbles in the rad or even a noticeable drop in coolant level even though the amount of fog it produces would make you think the level would drop a bit.  That being said, I can only run it for 10-15 minutes before it become unbearable lol.  Temps on the head and rad have gotten up to 140-160 and temps are consistent across the surfaces so I don't know that anything is clogged up at this point.   Going to run it with just water tonight and will probably pull the head.  $65 to have it milled.  I only used RTV on the bolts but not on the gasket itself as the manual indicated it was unnecessary on a one-sided gasket.  Will probably do a two sided copper gasket this time just out of paranoia.  I don't hear that these blocks crack TOO often, and can't see obvious signs of it so don't think it's that.

[Plymouthy Adams]

why don't you just drop the muffler out of the circuit and see if you have an engine problem instead of a collection problem....I do not know how long you have run this pup but with no mixing or water in the oil, no bubbles in the rad tank and even more important, no drop/loss of coolant...you may be just chasing your tail....I see no compression test data that would at this time also warrant pulling the head....I feel a few properly exercised tests/checks may yet be in order prior to making a call....

[_shel_ny]

One problem you have is you do not know what was going on with the engine prior to your purchase of the car.

As it was not running before you pulled the head to whack that valve into submission, you have little to go on as a point of reference.

As Plymouthy often says, prove what is right first. That way you can help yourself find the problem.

Also, with 4 threads about this engine, it can be tough to follow/know where you were/are at

[Fastback50]

4 hours ago, shel_ny said:

One problem you have is you do not know what was going on with the engine prior to your purchase of the car.

As it was not running before you pulled the head to whack that valve into submission, you have little to go on as a point of reference.

As Plymouthy often says, prove what is right first. That way you can help yourself find the problem.

Also, with 4 threads about this engine, it can be tough to follow/know where you were/are at

Yes I agree Shel, I only wish I knew what the condition of this motor was prior to it being parked many years ago.  I also agree about the 4 threads---I don't know if there is a way I can merge theses or not.  Still learning here, but if I had just kept adding to the original post would it put it at the top of the new threads list?  I definitely want to learn the "preferred" way of posting here for everyone's benefit/consideration.  Thanks.

[Plymouthy Adams]

technically it is for your benefit that they are combined as they will compliment each other and all has a chance to see where you started, where you going with the build and at what point you happen to be at just now...

[Fastback50]

5 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

why don't you just drop the muffler out of the circuit and see if you have an engine problem instead of a collection problem....I do not know how long you have run this pup but with no mixing or water in the oil, no bubbles in the rad tank and even more important, no drop/loss of coolant...you may be just chasing your tail....I see no compression test data that would at this time also warrant pulling the head....I feel a few properly exercised tests/checks may yet be in order prior to making a call....

That's a good idea Tim, I'll give it a whirl.  Compression test a few days ago showed 90, 80, 80, 80, 95, 90 psi.  From what I've read these are acceptable even if not optimal readings.  Any other tests you can recommend?  I'm thinking the exhaust gas tester could be useful, but will try the removal of the exhaust first.  Some day when I get this thing running/driving I'm buying a bunch of you guys beers at a show

[Plymouthy Adams]

I personally don't drink beer just use that money for a nice set of points, gasket or maybe a gallon of gas....

[Bobacuda]

Old mechanics told me to shellac the entire gasket if I wanted to make certain it would work.

However, based on no water in the oil and no oil in the water, I agree with Tim.  Drop the exhaust at the manifold and see if it still makes the funky fog.  It has never happened to me, so I don't know the symptoms, but if the fuel pump leaked gas back into the oil, would that make the funky smoke JXC is getting?

[Fastback50]

45 minutes ago, Bobacuda said:

Old mechanics told me to shellac the entire gasket if I wanted to make certain it would work.

However, based on no water in the oil and no oil in the water, I agree with Tim.  Drop the exhaust at the manifold and see if it still makes the funky fog.  It has never happened to me, so I don't know the symptoms, but if the fuel pump leaked gas back into the oil, would that make the funky smoke JXC is getting?

If I end up removing the head and having it milled, I'll definitely give the shellac a go.  I also don't smell any fuel in my oil, but I suppose my nose could be overlooking it if it's a small amount..

[greg g]

Did you retorque your head after a heat cycle?  Did you follow the proper bolt tightening srequence?  Did you use the correct torque setting.  Did you source the right gasket for your engines bypass setup?

 

Edited September 29, 2016 by greg g

[Fastback50]

1 hour ago, greg g said:

Did you retorque your head after a heat cycle?  Did you follow the proper bolt tightening srequence?  Did you use the correct torque setting.  Did you source the right gasket for your engines bypass setup?

 

Yes--after three heat cycles, until there was no more room for tightening.  Used the bolt sequence in the service manual, along with the graduated torque settings---25, 45, then 65 ft/lbs if I recall.  The gasket I ordered through AutoZone.  It was for a 218 flathead, all looked correct as far as there being holes where all bolts went through, etc.  Perhaps I should have used the Indian Shellac, or maybe pipe thread putty vs. RTV on my head bolt threads?  VPW site says pipe putty, but I can't see how one would work better than the other.

[Los_Control]

Just something to think about. Anytime you have two cylinders next to each other with exact same compression, and lower then the rest, they could be suspect for a leak between them.

They would be connected through the warped head/bad gasket and share the exact same compression. And because of the higher volume of space of combined cylinders, the compression would be lower.

And of course, could be nothing wrong, they just happen to be the same.

Could be you just rounded the numbers off to 80, actually one was 79 psi and the other was 82 psi. These cylinders would be reading differently and not throw a red flag.

And all this means to me, if I suspect some issue and doing a compression test looking for the issue, I would check those 2 cylinders multiple times to be positive they were constantly reading the same. Then when head was pulled, I would be looking very carefully at those 2 cylinders for some sort of trail.

[Don Coatney]

All spark plugs should be removed when doing a compression test. By doing so there will be no shared compression between 2 cylinders. Also there will always be an open valve in the cylinder not being tested. So with a failed head gasket between 2 cylinders the compression will read close to zero in both cylinders.

[dpollo]

I still think your only problem is a muffler full of antifreeze.    Take the muffler off as PA suggests,  you can then  leave the header pipe in placeand give it a good run.   If you really  have head  gasket leaks,  the coolant level will drop and you will get bubbles in the radiator.   One place you might get engine vacuum pulling in coolant is around the three head bolts that actually go through to the three intake ports  . Unlikely but possible.  Remove these bolts, apply thread sealer and replace and retorque. ( these bolts are closest to the intake manifold runners, center, front and rear)