Vehicle ID information needed 41 Plymouth

[Dick41]

Hi All:   Vehicle in question is a 1941 Plymouth Business Coupe.   I have clear WA state title that shows # P 11156703.  That would be correct for this P 11 car.

 

The shop manual for 41 shows an ID plate on the right door hinge post.  I found that.  It has # 15038062.  

The motor in the car has number P 12331158 which is a correct engine fora 1941 Special Deluxe Six in a P 12. 

I have a spare engine that came with the car.  Engine # is P11 *(star) 32009A.  The book shows that to be correct for a P 11 in 1941.

 

The prior owner is deceased.  I bought the car at his estate sale.  His widow had no informaton on engines, work done, etc.  So, no owner information is going to be available.  If I were to guess, it would appear that the P12 engine now in the car is a replacement.  And, perhaps the P 11 spare engine is the original?  However, I do not want to make a guess, especially at the motor vehiicle department.

 

Is there a hidden frame stamp engine or ID number somewhere?   Is that door plate number the one they should use to register the car?  it would appear that the VIN # that appears on the title would be the same as an engine number.  It certainly does not match the door plate number.

 

I am about to take the title and all papers to get the car registered.  I would like to know a little more about registration numbers before doing so.  I don't think they used VIN numbers back in the day to register these cars.

 

I finally decided to abandon the 318 V8 install.  Couldn't bring myself to do any firewall cutting or steering box moving.   I am in the process of rebuilding the L head that is in the car.  If that one is too far gone I will go to that spare L head that I have.  

 

Any information greatly appreciated

Dick

 

 

 

 

[TodFitch]

Your serial number from the door jamb plate indicates:

 

Serial Number 15038062

Found in range 15000101 to 15135030

Serial 37962 of 134930

Year 1941

Make Plymouth

Model Name DeLuxe

Model Code P11

Plant Detroit

Engine 6 cylinder 201.3 cu.in. L-head

Wheelbase 117 inches

 

See http://www.ply33.com/Misc/vin for that and some explanations about the various numbers you might find.

 

The serial number is what Chrysler tracked the car by and is what you need to send to Chrysler Historical for copies of the "build card". The build card will show the original engine number and original body number for the car.

 

The original engine number is probably stamped on the driver side frame rail but the location seems to vary from year to year so I can't say where you might find it on a '41. On my '33 it is between the running board supports. I understand on the post war cars it was around the kick up for the rear axle. In any case it may be only lightly stamped and hard to find under all the rust and crud that builds up over the decades.

[jcmiller]

I suspect you are going to have trouble with this.  The paper title document seems to be from a different 1941 (Detroit built Special Deluxe).  The serial number on the car is a Detroit built Deluxe. (If I am reading the chart correctly at Tod's link.)

[greg g]

The P numbers are engine numbers.  Since it was common to swap engines rather than repair them, many engine are mismatched from the title number especially where they used the engine numbers for titles rather than the Chrysler Serial Number.  Your best bet it to find the corresponding engine number as Todd said stamped on the drivers side frame rail.  I believe 41 was the only year where they used different engine numbers for the deluxe and special Deluxe models. (Can anyone explain this difference)  As noted your serial number came back to a deluxe (P11) so the P12 engine was/is a swap, since neither of your engines match the title document.  

Edited December 3, 2014 by greg g

[jcmiller]

Regarding the # P 11156703 (the number on the title), do you interpret it as the 156,703rd engine for P11s?

[TodFitch]

Regarding the # P 11156703 (the number on the title), do you interpret it as the 156,703rd engine for P11s?

Typically they started engine numbers at 1001 so I would interpret it as the 155,702nd engine build for P11 models.

[jcmiller]

Thx.

[deathbound]

The engine # on my '38 is stamped on the drivers side frame rail behind the axle kick up, close to the cross member in front of the gas tank.......any '41 owners should be able to confirm exactly where yours might be. You may have to use a scraper/sandpaper to expose.

[Ulu]

My serial number on the '47 is on outer face of the driver's side frame rail, (hidden by the left rear tire,) just behind the rear axle.

 

It matches my title, but not my engine. Never had the original engine for this car.

[Furylee2]

This is where the S/N was on my buddy's 41 Plymouth frame.

[Dick41]

Thank you all.  Especiallly Furry for that info. from another 41.  I am outa here with sandpaper, tire iron, wire brush, etc. to look for that number on the left rear tire frame arch (outside). I hope that location was standard for all the Plymouth 41s.

 

I would appreciate contact information to send to Chrysler for the Build Sheet.

 

Thanks all!

 

Dick 41

PS  May still be looking for a good running flathead L mill that fits.  Mine has a 23 inch long head.  Otherwise I will be doing a complete rebuild on one of my two available motors.  I am already good friends with Andy Bernbaums LOL.

[greg g]

If you get to rebuild time, check with Egge in Ca. and Terrell Machine parts in Texas.  They have standard and oversized pistons in stock also bearings, timing chains/sprockets, and other engine parts.  

[38plymouth]

What a cool thread. I just looked at that frame location on my 38 and found a very easy to read serial number that confirmed my engine is the original. Sweet.

[TodFitch]

. . .I would appreciate contact information to send to Chrysler for the Build Sheet. . .

Chrysler Historical Services

12501 Chrysler Freeway

CIMS 410-11-21

Detroit, MI 48288 USA

http://www.chryslergroupllc.com/company/Heritage/Pages/Build-Records.aspx

[JerseyHarold]

Dick41,

 

In California they have private DMV agents that work with you to get registrations/titles for a fee.  If other routes fail, you may want to contact an agent and see if they can help.

[Dick41]

Very Cool Thread indeed.  Thank you all!

 

Dick

[blucarsdn]

Having been there done that.. I can predict that if the Washington title has a PA # in lieu of the serial/VIN number, as stamped on the door jamp plate, (15038062) you are going to have trouble clearing the vehicle into CA..

I have dealt with two out of state early DPCD cars that had engine numbers on their titles, in lieu of the proper VIN, Had a real problem getting them straightened out.

I would suggest that you get the title straightened out befor you spend a dime on the car. If the car was ever reported as being stolen, and/or there is an uncleared, recorded lien on the car, you might find yourself having to surrender the car to a previous owner. A stolen car is never cleared from the registery until it is recovered.

As a point of info... up until about 1980, many states, especially the Souther States did not iisue titles. it was also very common to use engine and/or body numbers for identifiction of a vehicle because they were eary to find. Ford and many other manufactures stamped the serial numbers into the frame, quite often in hard to find places.

Serial numbers only started to gain some importance for identification in the late '40's, Chrysler built vehicles were generally the exception to the rule.. Bill

[jcmiller]

This won't help if you've removed the car from Washington, but a couple years ago I was looking at a car that potentially lacked a title in San Juan county.  The county auditor told me that if there was no title at all, you could get a VIN inspection from the State Patrol and get a temporary "affidavit in lieu of title."  After three years you can then apply for a regular title.  We found the title for the car I was looking at so I didn't test whether this is accurate or not.

[Dick41]

Armed with the location of a hidden frame number, my trusty wire brush and a flashlight, I pulled the left rear tire this afternoon.   The mystery deepens!   I found a number right where this forum said to look.  Just to the rear of the rear axle on the outside of the left frame arch.  What makes this more interesting is it is clearly a professionally punched number, very old looking too.  It is only a partial number that reads:  "L P  11 (eleven) L".   Nothing else!   Other than the aforementioned door plate on the right door hinge post, and motor numbers, I found one other on the firewall, just underneath the voltage regulator.  It reads "8 6 6 7 5"   The 5 is under the other four numbers.    These too appear to have been applied by the factory.

 

I had a friend in law enforcement run that door plate number and it came back clear, as did the existing WA state plate number.   He also ran the registration number on the title and it too was clear.  Sure lots of food for thought in the replies I have received; and I sincerely thank you all.

 

Due to this, for now....call me Sleepless in Califorinia..... Not Seattle!

 

Dick

[Plymouthy Adams]

that is the frame rail number if it has an L in ...you need to try to see if you can find a number forward of the rear wheel drivers side...just as it starts to tip u over the axle..

[timkingsbury]

Hi All:   Vehicle in question is a 1941 Plymouth Business Coupe.   I have clear WA state title that shows # P 11156703.  That would be correct for this P 11 car.

 

The shop manual for 41 shows an ID plate on the right door hinge post.  I found that.  It has # 15038062.  

The motor in the car has number P 12331158 which is a correct engine fora 1941 Special Deluxe Six in a P 12. 

I have a spare engine that came with the car.  Engine # is P11 *(star) 32009A.  The book shows that to be correct for a P 11 in 1941.

 

The prior owner is deceased.  I bought the car at his estate sale.  His widow had no informaton on engines, work done, etc.  So, no owner information is going to be available.  If I were to guess, it would appear that the P12 engine now in the car is a replacement.  And, perhaps the P 11 spare engine is the original?  However, I do not want to make a guess, especially at the motor vehiicle department.

 

Is there a hidden frame stamp engine or ID number somewhere?   Is that door plate number the one they should use to register the car?  it would appear that the VIN # that appears on the title would be the same as an engine number.  It certainly does not match the door plate number.

 

I am about to take the title and all papers to get the car registered.  I would like to know a little more about registration numbers before doing so.  I don't think they used VIN numbers back in the day to register these cars.

 

I finally decided to abandon the 318 V8 install.  Couldn't bring myself to do any firewall cutting or steering box moving.   I am in the process of rebuilding the L head that is in the car.  If that one is too far gone I will go to that spare L head that I have.  

 

Any information greatly appreciated

Dick

Howdy Dick -

 

I see a lot of good information coming forward here for you.  I too have a 1941 plymouth business coupe. I will attach a few pictures of it and it too was a WA  car.  On my car the serial number of the door post, is the same as the serial number on the left (drivers side) outter frame rail just behind the rear end and it is that serial number that was on the title when I got the car.  Now that being said, the owner I bought it from had bought it many years prior from another state and the title did not match the door post.  He went through a lengthy process and eventually found the title did match the serial number on the back frame rail.  None of those numbers did or should they match the engine serial number.

 

I read in another post you dont see a serial number on the back frame rail.  I assume it doesnt look like the serial number was ground off, or if it was it is some time ago.

 

So it would seem if I am reading things correctly, that you may have a 1941 plymouth title, but it may not have been the title for the car.  I read you have a law enforcement officer check that door post serial number to see if it is clear, and I dont want to toss doubt on your purchase,  but just because its is clear in the state the current title was from, doesnt mean it wasnt less than clear in some other state.

 

I am also not a lawyer,  but given you have the clear title and the estate sale documents you certainly have a clear path showing you did not steal the car.

 

On the engine front, thank the baby Jesus your not putting a v8 in it.  The 1941 actually did have an optional overdrive for the car.  You can put in one of those or a more modern 1952-56 electic overdrive in the car to help the highway side.  On the engine, since you

were thinking of the potential of a v8, therefore your likely not too concerned about everything not matching,  so I would recommend you put in the later 230 ci motor.  Have one of those built up, there are lots of period performance options out there (and will be more soon hint hint) and when you pop the hood you certainly get the look of a 1941 plymouth.

 

Tim

[DJ194950]

Very nice car Tim!

 

What happened to the other carbs. Shouldn,t there be 1 or 2 more?

 

DJ

[Furylee2]

Armed with the location of a hidden frame number, my trusty wire brush and a flashlight, I pulled the left rear tire this afternoon.   The mystery deepens!   I found a number right where this forum said to look.  Just to the rear of the rear axle on the outside of the left frame arch.  What makes this more interesting is it is clearly a professionally punched number, very old looking too.  It is only a partial number that reads:  "L P  11 (eleven) L".   Nothing else!   Other than the aforementioned door plate on the right door hinge post, and motor numbers, I found one other on the firewall, just underneath the voltage regulator.  It reads "8 6 6 7 5"   The 5 is under the other four numbers.    These too appear to have been applied by the factory.

 

I had a friend in law enforcement run that door plate number and it came back clear, as did the existing WA state plate number.   He also ran the registration number on the title and it too was clear.  Sure lots of food for thought in the replies I have received; and I sincerely thank you all.

 

Due to this, for now....call me Sleepless in Califorinia..... Not Seattle!

 

Dick

 

I would go back and check again.  If you look at my picture, you will see that L P 11 number in the middle of the frame (top to bottom), on the very right side of my picture.  I found that same thing stamped on my 41 coupe frame as well.

 

I forgot to mention, that S/N on the frame in the picture I posted matched his engine number.

[blucarsdn]

As I have stated in my previous comments, you might have problems with clearing the vehicle into California.. You can ask all kinds of questions, to all kinds of people, with multiple answers, in the end, the State Department of Motor Vehicles is going to have the final say.

I will again suggest to you that you make an appointment with the DMV, follow their directions, taking your paper work and the vehicle to them if so directed, Secure a clear title and registration to the vehicle before you spend one more dime on the vehicle.

I buy vehicles all over the Intermountain West, Nevada, Idaho, Montana, etc. Most of them have not been licensed in forty or more years. I secure a clear Caifornia title and registration to the vehicle, then put it on a non-op with the state.. If i get the vehicle running, I then send in the required fees to the state, no additional inspections are required.This is a big plus if the vehicle and/or power has been altered.. In many instances I resale the vehicle with it's non-op status, which is not a problem, because the new owner only has to transfer the non-op to his name. Insurance does not have to be maintained on vehicles that are on non-op.

[timkingsbury]

Very nice car Tim!

 

What happened to the other carbs. Shouldn,t there be 1 or 2 more?

 

DJ

Lol.. well when the new AoK dual carb intake is complete early in the new year, I suspect one will find its way on that car.  The 41 really was really a car that was restored to be a show car.The guy who did it won a ton of shows with the car but unfortunately developed health problems and put it up for sale.  He was not getting anywhere near what the car was worth, forget about what he had in it which was likely 60-70K.  A good friend of mine called me about the car and in a weak moment, I went out had a look with my "brother from another mother"  aka George Asche's son Rob,  and  I bought it.  We brought her home, put it in heated storage and to be honest it really didnt need anything, and not everything we have has to be hopped up, so I have left it as I got it. But with the new  AoK intake coming, and this is the only US small block vehicle I own, well  it may get its 1st non-factory upgrade.. lol..  Then again, a couple of guys keep bugging me to buy it, so who knows.

 

But it is indeed a pretty car.