FEF issues I can't figure

[ggdad1951]

ok, we got the hood on last night and there are several things I'm noticing/having issues I've been chasing and I'm a bit at wits ends.

1. horn: bench tested with a battery and worked great. Installed on truck not so much, barely get a squeek. Good ground to frame, continuity thru the horn, and 6V potential across the contacts on the SW. I remember a post about the gasket being to thick might being an issue?

2. Hood alignment: the passenger side front is touching the center of the grill clip, rear lines up perfect. Driver side front lines up perfect, rear is "forward" enough to expose the welting on the cab. Fenders aligned well with the cab side. do I need to shift the cab to the side a little?

3. cracks in the doors! about where the wing window ends there are cracks in both doors that open up when you close the door. Didn't notice until the doors seal went on.

4. panel lights: don't work, good ground, new bulb and new switch....I plan to run down the wiring train/check the switches today.

all in all not a bad trip so far, but the center section of the hood took a few big scratches last night when a helper over opened the hood before I got the prop arms installed...

SW also shows a crack where I did a repair...my guess is the sw got used as a handle to pull into the cab by the touch up paint guy, I've been very careful about not doing that.

I know I see the issues WAY too much, I'm too hard on myself.

thanks for any help guys!

Edited June 15, 2012 by ggdad1951

[Merle Coggins]

Confussed on the horn issue. Did you change anything with the horn after bench testing it? If not it should still work. Also you say it is grounded good and you have 6v potential at the contacts in the steering wheel (horn button). The horn body doesn't need to be grounded, unless it's a one wire horn which would require a relay. The horn button provides the ground for the horn. You should have a wire from the "B" terminal of the voltage regulator feeding voltage to the horn, and the other wire on the horn goes up the column to the horn button. When the button is pressed the contacts complete the ground path. If your steering column isn't grounded it won't work.

Merle

[ggdad1951]

Merle, no change to the horn since bench test, and good ground from the 3 lobed mount on the SW to the body/frame ( .2 ohms). I'm using a pliers to make the connection, the horn ring doesn't do anything! No relay on my horn, and as far as I know no polarity to the horn either....frustrating as this is the first "serious" issue I've had with electrical that I've spent time chasing with no resolution. Guess its payback for no issues w/ the fuel sender, headlights and VR!

[Merle Coggins]

If you touch the end of the wire, in the steering column, to the claw bracket (3 lobed mount) with the horn sound? Of if you supply an alternate ground to that wire with the horn sound? If not you probably have a power supply problem or the horn wire in the column isn't connected right.

[Dave72dt]

Not much consulation but my hood panels fit exactly the same as you're describing. I cured mine with a cutoff wheel and a welder. You may need to sacrifice some door gap to even out the hood panels or reposition the welting or both.

Door cracks? I guess we both missed those. I did weld some up along the door edges where the outer skin is folded over the inner. I'd say the seal is too thick or too hard at the point it's opening up or forward of that point towards the hinges. Does the weatherstriping overlap at that poin? Moving the door out a bit at the hinges may help.

[Dave72dt]

Not much consulation but my hood panels fit exactly the same as you're describing. I cured mine with a cutoff wheel and a welder. You may need to sacrifice some door gap to even out the hood panels or reposition the welting or both.

Door cracks? I guess we both missed those. I did weld some up along the door edges where the outer skin is folded over the inner. I'd say the seal is too thick or too hard at the point it's opening up or forward of that point towards the hinges. Does the weatherstriping overlap at that poin? Moving the door out a bit at the hinges may help.

[ggdad1951]

If you touch the end of the wire, in the steering column, to the claw bracket (3 lobed mount) with the horn sound? Of if you supply an alternate ground to that wire with the horn sound? If not you probably have a power supply problem or the horn wire in the column isn't connected right.

it tries....VERY weakly, the horn wire is a NOS part and I wonder if it's not the problem....just looking to see if I missed a "hidden" trick, the circuit SHOULD work! I'll try the alternate ground idea this mrning and report back. Good idea, I'm too close to the problem to see things like that!

Not much consulation but my hood panels fit exactly the same as you're describing. I cured mine with a cutoff wheel and a welder. You may need to sacrifice some door gap to even out the hood panels or reposition the welting or both.

Door cracks? I guess we both missed those. I did weld some up along the door edges where the outer skin is folded over the inner. I'd say the seal is too thick or too hard at the point it's opening up or forward of that point towards the hinges. Does the weatherstriping overlap at that poin? Moving the door out a bit at the hinges may help.

I know FEF was in an accident at one point in his life, either w/ gg or the owner before that from things I've seen on the frame/engine (passenger front spring mount bolted on instead of riveted, fan markings on the back of the rad, non original engine) so I'm thinking some of the alignment issues I'm having relate back to a slightly tweaked frame.

no way to see those cracks w/o the new weather seal in there to flex the door...w/o the weather seal no crack, with weather seal, as you close the door the crack appears....winter project I guess! Seeing as BOTH doors have this issue, I'd put that under "places to check for cracks" during a rebuild, also would check the little indent on the front of the hood, seems to be some small cracks there as well (or its the paint cracking from flexing).

Edited June 15, 2012 by ggdad1951

[Young Ed]

I wonder if your door cracks might not disappear as your weather strip breaks in a little bit.

[Plymouthy Adams]

it will take a number of days in the hot sun to get the rubber to "conform" to the body and such..some makers of these door seals and such ahve their molds just a tad off and make the stuff either too thick..to hard of a durometer or both..have seen this many many time..I have on the sedans found only one maker of three that has the closet fitting seals and strive to use them on my vehicles..the trunk seal is made so well that there is zero need to glue as it fits snug and help in place by its own bead..

[HanksB3B]

Mark,

Sorry you are having difficulties. Sometimes I had to just take a break or move onto another task regroup and refresh rather than work on a particular item while feeling frustrated. That's when bad stuff happens.

Dumb question: Tried adjusting the horn adjusting screw at the back of the horn while mounted on it's bracket?

Please clarify:

To me "cracks" means a hairline fissure in the paint itself.

Gaps on the other hand mean spaces between body parts.

The hood fitmaent does not sound correct. The hood welting should not be visible. The forward and aft position (dimension) between the front grill and cab sounds like it is too great. Did you first mount the center piece of the hood before the drivers side and passengers side wings were attached? It's very obvious when just the center piece is mounted by it self that the mounting holes align comfortably and correctly at both the radiator support and the cowl. Putting the hood on all assembled is a bear let alone not having aligned the center piece correctly. Not one likes to go backwards but I guess that's why vehiches have a reverse gear.

Hank

P.S. I'd trade a horn issue for a fuel tank sender issue any day.

[Plymouthy Adams]

set the hood..align the body around this..this is the single largest part of the vehicle that will define the body in the front ia all aspects, left, right and often on and down to the actual curve of the hood as it meets the curve of the cab at the cowl..aligning the fenders and such it totally possible by height, and left to right shift of the radiator support..using antiquesk pads and shims as necessary..

[ggdad1951]

Tim/Hank: unfortunatly the hood was the LAST piece to get put on....I figured from what I had read the fenders lining up would take car of the hood...put that on the list of "next time I'll know better". At this point it's gonna have to stay the way it is, might stay that way for a bit. That's a lot of lossening and shifting of stuff around 6 days before a show and nobody to help. Maybe a nice winter project as I'm gonna have to fix the fender anyway.

Hank: cracks are cracks (gap to you) in the metal on the doors, open up quite a bit when closing the doors. Hood issues might just be paint flex.

As for the horn, I took Merle's advice and grounded the horn to the block and a large honk was produced. That means it's in the wiring....again I'll deal with that after next weekend along with everything else.

Panel lights fixed, bad switch. You'd THINK a brand new in box NOS switch would work.....nope the original is in there with all it's patina and working well.

[Desotodav]

Pity about the small issues Mark, but I'm sure that you will sort them out. Sounds like you just down to the hood alignment and small crack/s issues. I'm still going through some small issues with my truck mate. My fender and hood on the left side need to move back about 3mm. Maybe your eye is too keen like mine? All will work out fine in the end !!!

Desotodav

[ggdad1951]

Glass got put in today (at least the windshield and the rear corners), looked really good, the guy had no problem with the corners. He will have to come back to put the rear center in tho, he cut it too small. AND sadly he'll have to come back for the cracked windshield.

NOTE: DO NOT OVER TIGHTEN THE INNER BEZEL! YOU WILL CRACK YOUR NEW GLASS!

Still took him out for a 10 mile jaunt...I now know he will go 47mph by my speedo....with my slightly larger tires he might be actually hitting 50mph.

Also know for a fact now the passenger half does have a small crack (gap for Hank) by the indent up front....

[HanksB3B]

You don't have a "gap" in your windshield now...do ya?

I've had days when everything seems to go wrong. Now aren't you glad you called in a pro? I could have cracked (not gapped) that windshield all by myself and I'd be out $45 or so (Paul..).

Hank

P.S. Didn't you feel good after the corner windows were in?

Edited June 16, 2012 by HanksB3B

[TheMoose]

Was the corner glass installed from the inside or outside?

I've been to a couple of different shops & one said in & one said out, who was right?

[John-T-53]

The only way it'll go in is from the inside.

It helps to install the windshield in warm weather - then let the truck sit in the sun. Tighten the garnish trim screws gradually over a few days as the rubber sets, but not too tight. The glass might be too big - my glass guy recommended making it 1/16" smaller all around to minimize chances of cracking. Before reinstalling, hold the glass up to the opening w/o the seal and check the fit.

[ggdad1951]

yep from the inside, one little score on the driver's corner glass seal...I didn't watch...I've heard too many bad stories.

the glass was cut off my original piece, so SHOULD be the right size. There was a little visible gap by the centerpost so maybe the glass was a bit to the outside? Should it "float" in the openinhg? You can see the glass cracked by the seam near the top corner of the window. If not I 'd want him to recut it about 1/8" longer on the bottom to close up the gap.

Edited June 16, 2012 by ggdad1951

[JBNeal]

... 2. Hood alignment: the passenger side front is touching the center of the grill clip, rear lines up perfect. Driver side front lines up perfect, rear is "forward" enough to expose the welting on the cab. Fenders aligned well with the cab side. do I need to shift the cab to the side a little?...

It sounds like your cab is slightly out of square with the frame...if you think you have frame issues, there is a procedure for checking in the shop manual. A quick visual inspection can yield the tell-tale sign of frame damage: flanges that are no longer true but have a wavy appearance. In a front-end collision on these trucks, this damage can appear between the front axle and the transmission.

As for the horn, grounding beyond the horn button is a tricky problem. On the stock wiring harness, power is supplied to the horn, the horn button completes the circuit to ground. Unfortunately on these trucks, this is easier said than done. Pushing the horn button completes the circuit from the horn wire to the spring plate, to the spring plate retainer, to the steering wheel nut, to the steering tube threads, to the worm bearing rollers, to the bearing race, to the gearbox housing, to the gearbox mounting bolt threads, to the mounting bolt flat washer, then to the frame. The cumulative effect of resistance at any of these connections will mute that horn and many colorful metaphors will be uttered.

One solution I've been thinkin'bout is to make a new insulator (or modify the exising one) at the steering wheel to accept two wires: one for power, one for ground. The $2 universal horn button that can be found at AutoZone, JC Whitney, etc. possibly could be modified to fit under the stock horn button. This setup would make for direct completion of the ground circuit, allowing more reliable (and louder) horn operation.

Edited November 3, 2013 by JBNeal

[Jeff Balazs]

Mark;

I feel for you buddy........and you are scaring the crap out of me at the same time.

As I read of the trials you are going through I can't help thinking ahead on my own project. When I disassembled the old beast it didn't seem that there were so many potential fit up issues facing me. But of course I was not looking past the relatively decent fitting sheet metal I had purchased. I suppose once it has been taken apart and fussed over and then new gaskets etc.....are thrown into the equation that this is the time when the real issues crop up.

I also wonder how much of this is due to the different lives each of our old trucks have lived? Accidents.....cobbled repairs by past owners.....and 60 years of heavy wear and tear.

I know when I bought my truck one of the biggest factors was that so much of it had survived these wars. It seemed to me that there was an almost indestructible quality about it. This appealed to my greatly as I truly despise the disposable society we have become. But now you have me wondering how I am going to get this all fit back together.

It seems like there are potential draw backs to almost any reassembly scheme. I suppose put it all together loose and slowly bring it back to a good fit is the only prudent course of action. But it would be nice if there was some way to prevent some of the grief you have gone through.

One thing which may work in my favor (at least in my eyes) is that I want to use my truck as a daily work truck. I have never wanted a fancy paint job as I know how quickly it will get scuffed and scratched. I will be totally happy if I can come up with the right combination of a decent fit and utility.

I am just not sure what that is yet.

You hang in there. I know you will be able to solve all this. Your efforts to date have been impressive to say the least. I wonder if having artificial deadlines like getting ready for a show has added to your stress on this?

I am not a car show guy so perhaps my perspective is not relevant.... but I do know you will have this truck long after the show is forgotten.

Jeff

[Plymouthy Adams]

I don't think this can be said to often..when taking these cars/trucks apart for refinish..thinks kinda get a bit more involved than you first think..you may even reahspe a pnel that was dented and when finisl body work is done..this could easily alter the fit of the panel as it was when removed. I do recommend that if you take one apart that you at minimum fit and align while in the primer stage to verify that alignment is going to go fairly easy after topcoat goes on..areas that get a bit of welting..at least mock up with couple pieces of shoebox materila inimitate that material on install..after the paint is on is not a good time to realize things are not just right...DO set and align that hood first...

[ggdad1951]

I don't think this can be said to often..when taking these cars/trucks apart for refinish..thinks kinda get a bit more involved than you first think..you may even reahspe a pnel that was dented and when finisl body work is done..this could easily alter the fit of the panel as it was when removed. I do recommend that if you take one apart that you at minimum fit and align while in the primer stage to verify that alignment is going to go fairly easy after topcoat goes on..areas that get a bit of welting..at least mock up with couple pieces of shoebox materila inimitate that material on install..after the paint is on is not a good time to realize things are not just right...DO set and align that hood first...

after my issues, I TOTALLY agree w/ Tim!

[HanksB3B]

When I disassembled the old beast it didn't seem that there were so many potential fit up issues facing me. But now you have me wondering how I am going to get this all fit back together. But it would be nice if there was some way to prevent some of the grief you have gone through.

Way! You’d be surprised how much cheap labor a Pastrami Sandwich, a little cut to size Walnut (small project) (placed on backorder), and a beer will buy you these days.

I have never wanted a fancy paint job as I know how quickly it will get scuffed and scratched. I will be totally happy if I can come up with the right combination of a decent fit and utility. I am just not sure what that is yet.

Short of taking your truck to Earl Scheib and if money spent on materials is not the primary concern and it’s just a matter of using your truck as a WORK TRUCK (not like some prima donnas), might I suggest using (for durability and rust protection) some of the newer types of either Urethane, Epoxy, or Hot Rod Flat primers.

Check out TCP Global:

http://www.tcpglobal.com/spraygundepot/?gclid=CK-Z1NLD1bACFQF6hwodWFAf2Q

They are just a short hop down to San Diego (worth the trip)

I wonder if having artificial deadlines like getting ready for a show has added to your stress on this?

The saying “Haste makes waste” seems to fit here I wasn’t aware of this until now and you know my saying of “Some Jobs are worthy of taking of taking as much time as is reasonably possible to complete.”

I truly despise the disposable society we have become.

I ditto that!

But I do know you will have this truck long after the show is forgotten.Jeff

I think my truck will be here long after I’m forgotten.

Hank

[Young Ed]

Its not just a show its the largest show in the country! Marks entire winter paint and assembly timeline has been to get ready for this show. Regardless of these little details he's gotten enough done to drive over and have a great time.

[Jeff Balazs]

Hi Ed;

I hope you don't think I was being critical of Mark's approach.

Quite to the contrary I have the utmost respect for what he has accomplished.

My comments were meant to convey my own fears......cause if he is having these sorts of issues.......God knows' what I am in for!

As for the show thing? Well......I did say my perspective could be irrelevant.

I do get it...... it is just that sometimes we allow these sorts of deadlines to interfere with the end results.

Jeff