Merle Coggins Posted May 29, 2011 Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 Did my voltage regulator just crap out? I finally got a chance to fire up my truck and get it out of my garage (winter storage) and park it in the driveway (summer storage) so that I can use my garage to properly park my motorcycle through it's summer usage. However, I noticed that the ammeter didn't move to the charge side like it always does after cranking up the engine. I gave the regulator a couple of love taps to no avail. So I got out my volt meter. I have 6 volts at the "BAT" terminal but nothing at the "ARM" or "Field" terminals. I don't have my service manual handy to review the regulator's circuitry, nor did I have time to do any further troubleshooting. I was hoping that the contacts may have been stuck, but since a few taps didn't get it going I suppose I'll have to open it up for further investigation. Hopefully I'll have time to get to it sometime this week. Any input from the brain trust? Merle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted May 29, 2011 Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 There should have been something on the armature connection even if the regulator is not working: The generator will put out something just based on the residual magnetic field in the iron pole pieces inside the field coils... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted May 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 Thanks Tod, that's what I was thinking too. This is going to bug me now until I can check it out further. Merle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechresto Posted May 29, 2011 Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 If you had the battery out for winter storage then just repolarize the system, not uncommon for the circuit to lose polarization. Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted May 29, 2011 Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 Pop the cover and dress the points with a points file or some stiff thin cardboard. They may have corroded or stuck duing your storage period. I have even heard of spiders invading the housings and their webs prevent stuff from moving correctly inside the reg. The you ca temporarily ground the field coil with a jumper wire with the engine at hig idle. If the geny is OK, it will jump to max charge, assuming the brushed are ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanksB3B Posted May 29, 2011 Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 (edited) Merle, My generator mysteriously has de-polarized a couple of times. Silly as it may seem, I keep a wire with an insulating cap on it just in case. If it'll help and you can’t get yours working I have a NOS one that $55 would get to Wisconsin. (That is if for once Farm and Fleet fails) Hank Edited November 4, 2011 by HanksB3B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted June 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 (edited) So, I did some studying today. I read through my service manual, read some old threads on polarizing generators, and read one of the Chrysler training programs on the Imperial site. (thanks for providing that link Greg) After all of that I decided that polarization was what needed to be done. When I got home I fired it up and sure enough, no charging. So, like it said in the Chrysler training, and everywhere else, I shut it down and used a jumper wire to cross the battery and armature terminals. After restarting it still didn't charge. I then removed the cover of the regulator to have a look. It looked good. I tried the polarization again with no change in results. I connected my volt meter to the armature terminal of the generator and started it up again. 0 voltage. I then used my screwdriver and closed the contacts of the Circuit Breaker contacts of the regulator and it jumped up to 6.5 volts. I then popped the contacts open again (they stayed closed) and the armature voltage dropped to 4.5 volts. When I revved up the engine it came up to 7.5 - 8 volts. I pulled out the throttle cable to let it run at an elevated RPM. The ammeter was up near 50 amps and I could see the Current Regulator points vibrating to control the max output of the gen. It's all good now. The gen charges good and the Voltage regulator controls the voltage at around 7.5 volts. I let it run for a while to recharge the battery, then shut it down and reinstalled the regulator cover. Of course I had to try again, so I fired it back up and it still charges good. I have to wonder why my gen lost it's residual magnetism. I had generator and starter rebuilt by a local shop when I was building my engine as phase 1 of the truck overhaul over 5 years ago. I never had to polarize the gen. I just installed it, wired it up the the regulator and it worked. Even after moving the regulator from my temporary dash panel, that I used to drive the truck without it's body, to it permanent position on the firewall. Even disconnected the battery numerous times during other projects and never had to polarize it. I had the truck running lat in March to slide it over in my garage so that I could sneek my motorcycle out. It charged fine then. So what happened in the past couple of months? Could a lightening strike nearby demagnetize the gen? There have been a few nasty storms this spring. It just seems odd. And after all of that I find that my brake lights aren't working again. Another Napa brake light switch failed. I'm NOT having good luck with them and I'm getting tired of replacing them. It's time to find another source. Merle Edited June 1, 2011 by Merle Coggins 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 Merle try the local HD dealer or parts place. Lot of M/c and atv's using hydraulic switches, they can't all be bad. I have wired my brake switch through a dedicated fused wire from the bat side of the starter solenoid. Brake lights nice and bright now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis_MN Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 Merle, Maybe you have a short circuit somewhere. The switch you gave me has been working just fine for two years now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Elder Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 So, I did some studying today. I read through my service manual, read some old threads on polarizing generators, and read one of the Chrysler training programs on the Imperial site. (thanks for providing that link Greg) After all of that I decided that polarization was what needed to be done. When I got home I fired it up and sure enough, no charging. So, like it said in the Chrysler training, and everywhere else, I shut it down and used a jumper wire to cross the battery and armature terminals. After restarting it still didn't charge. I then removed the cover of the regulator to have a look. It looked good. I tried the polarization again with no change in results. I connected my volt meter to the armature terminal of the generator and started it up again. 0 voltage. I then used my screwdriver and closed the contacts of the Circuit Breaker contacts of the regulator and it jumped up to 6.5 volts. I then popped the contacts open again (they stayed closed) and the armature voltage dropped to 4.5 volts. When I revved up the engine it came up to 7.5 - 8 volts. I pulled out the throttle cable to let it run at an elevated RPM. The ammeter was up near 50 amps and I could see the Current Regulator points vibrating to control the max output of the gen. It's all good now. The gen charges good and the Voltage regulator controls the voltage at around 7.5 volts. I let it run for a while to recharge the battery, then shut it down and reinstalled the regulator cover. Of course I had to try again, so I fired it back up and it still charges good. I have to wonder why my gen lost it's residual magnetism. I had generator and starter rebuilt by a local shop when I was building my engine as phase 1 of the truck overhaul over 5 years ago. I never had to polarize the gen. I just installed it, wired it up the the regulator and it worked. Even after moving the regulator from my temporary dash panel, that I used to drive the truck without it's body, to it permanent position on the firewall. Even disconnected the battery numerous times during other projects and never had to polarize it. I had the truck running lat in March to slide it over in my garage so that I could sneek my motorcycle out. It charged fine then. So what happened in the past couple of months? Could a lightening strike nearby demagnetize the gen? There have been a few nasty storms this spring. It just seems odd. And after all of that I find that my brake lights aren't working again. Another Napa brake light switch failed. I'm NOT having good luck with them and I'm getting tired of replacing them. It's time to find another source. Merle http://www.wiltonae.com/home/index.aspx I know you fixed it but I found this to be an interesting site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 So, I did some studying today. I read through my service manual, read some old threads on polarizing generators, and read one of the Chrysler training programs on the Imperial site. (thanks for providing that link Greg) After all of that I decided that polarization was what needed to be done. When I got home I fired it up and sure enough, no charging. So, like it said in the Chrysler training, and everywhere else, I shut it down and used a jumper wire to cross the battery and armature terminals. After restarting it still didn't charge. I then removed the cover of the regulator to have a look. It looked good. I tried the polarization again with no change in results. I connected my volt meter to the armature terminal of the generator and started it up again. 0 voltage. I then used my screwdriver and closed the contacts of the Circuit Breaker contacts of the regulator and it jumped up to 6.5 volts. I then popped the contacts open again (they stayed closed) and the armature voltage dropped to 4.5 volts. When I revved up the engine it came up to 7.5 - 8 volts. I pulled out the throttle cable to let it run at an elevated RPM. The ammeter was up near 50 amps and I could see the Current Regulator points vibrating to control the max output of the gen. Actually reading this makes me think it was not a polarization issue: You polarized it several times with no effect. Then when you mechanically closed the cutout contacts things started working. Sounds more like the cutout was sticking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggdad1951 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 http://www.wiltonae.com/home/index.aspxI know you fixed it but I found this to be an interesting site. has anyone done this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 At $90 that seems reasonable. A new stock regulator is almost $50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted June 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 That's interesting on the solid state conversion, but my regulator is fine. I don't believe I had a polarization issue. It seemed to have lost all of it's residual magnetism. The circuit breaker points in the regulator work just fine and by manually closing them I did the same thing as jumping the Battery and Armature terminals with a wire. That seemed to give the generator the jump start it needed. As I read it, the circuit breaker points only close when the generator output equals or exceeds the battery voltage. At that point the contacts close and connect the generator to the battery. This keeps the battery from discharging back through the generator when it's output is low or when the engine is off. At the same time the Voltage regulator points and Current regulator points control the field coil strength to control the max output of the generator. This all seems to be working just like it should in my regulator. So here's my next question(s)... How do you guys "Polarize" your generators? Engine stopped, as stated in the Chrysler training program files, or with the engine running? And how long do you have to hold the jumper wire to the terminals? I tried it a couple of times with the engine off and only held the wire there for a second or two and it didn't seem to do anything. When I made the connection with the circuit breaker points with the engine running it got the generator excited and working properly. Merle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave72dt Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 Did you get a spark when you first jumpered the regulator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted June 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Not at first, but after I rubbed through the rust on the screw heads I did. Merle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanksB3B Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 With the engine stopped, just till it sparked. Merle, by getting the Generator "Excited", do you mean you had a meter hooked up and once the contact was made you could see a rise in voltage output? Although the book goes into great detail. I've never serviced a Voltage Regulator. My electrical shop gives me the impression it's a lost art. Glad you got it fixed, Hank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave72dt Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 That single spark should have been enough to polarize it. You might want to pull the wires off the reg and clean the terminals and wire ends. For some reason they occasionally get a little corrosive scale buidlup on them and make poor contact. Manually closing the points may have forced enough amps through the system to burn through the corrosion. Setting the regulator as a dying art is simply because so few vehicles use adjustable ones anymore and rarely need to be readjusted after the initial factroy setting. It's not difficult to do. Just needs to be done in the proper sequence. Batteries that are constanly boiling the water out would be an indication the reg needs to be set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 When I made the connection with the circuit breaker points with the engine running it got the generator excited and working properly. Merle Did the headlights come on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggdad1951 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 With the engine stopped, just till it sparked. Merle, by getting the Generator "Excited", do you mean you had a meter hooked up and once the contact was made you could see a rise in voltage output? Although the book goes into great detail. I've never serviced a Voltage Regulator. My electrical shop gives me the impression it's a lost art. Glad you got it fixed, Hank the "lost art" is half the reason I asked if anyone tried the conversion. I'm tempted to do that just to not have to deal with it ever again. Mine seems to be in good shape, but by the book, it seems to contradict itself in how to re-"calibrate" it. I am debating on that conversion....anyohe have any thoughts on that? I could keep my original look, but not have to deal with the issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted June 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Is your regulator not working properly? If not, go for it. If it works leave it alone. At least that's my opinion. Merle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggdad1951 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 it "worked" back in the day, altho that could be a reason I was told the geni was shot when it wasn't. I started to "tune" it and the book started to contradict itself in my mind, so I know it's out of adjustment due to my tinkering. My buddy had offered to stop over with his o-scope when the time comes to get it running as he actually knows how to do the adjustments. But the solid state would take all the hair pulling out of it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Is your regulator not working properly? If not, go for it. If it works leave it alone. At least that's my opinion. Merle Sage advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanksB3B Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 I concur. Hank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechresto Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 One thing to remember guys, these charging systems with the exception of police, route van and ambulance, dont charge at idle speed they are set up that way. If your engine is idling you can energize the system by manually closing the contacts but it will open them in a short time. Polarizing the generator does two things, 1-it gives the field windings a weak residual magnetic field, 2-it sets up the field windings to the proper north south orientation in the gen. Polarization must be done with the engine off to achieve proper orientation of the coils, if done when running, 90% of the time it will just scramble that orientation. Regulators are not hard to set up just follow the directions and take your time, and remember that autolite systems must be tested with the regulator cover screwed in place, the cover is an integral part of the magnetic field telling the regulator what to do. Adjust it, put the cover on and test it. If any of you want the flowchart to test/isolate/diagnose charging systems or if theres a place to post it on the site let me know Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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