42 hours of frustration

[ggdad1951]

well, yesterday was supposed to be a banner day for me. It was fluids day, and possibly turn the engine over day. Young Ed was gonna stop over and watch us play truck. Long story short this is what happened:

Spent the better part of the 42 hours (3 of us at 14 hours for the day), maybe half of that running the brake and fuel lines. For you purists out there, I ran the fuel line stock. Maybe someday reroute, but that was just way easier than trying to figure out a new location with the steering box in the way. We then started to fill the brake lines. Fronts bled out nice, and we started to bleed the rears when all HE-double hockey sticks broke loose. BOTH REAR WHEEL CYLINDERS LEAK! The passenger side like a friggin hose, driver side weeps. We noticed the passenger side first (we were bleeding that one) and ended up taking the hub off (read about half an hour of dinking around to pull the axle, bearings and hub) to find the front piston hung up in the bore. Took it apart and put it back together and tried to see if it worked. Looked good, put the hub back one....realized we forgot the shoe return spring, took the hub back off, put spring back on, hub back on and tried to finish the bleed....only to have it pour out again. And THEN notice the drivers side weeping out the bottom of the hub as well. At this point that is almost against a wall so I can't even pull that side until I get the front wheels on and we can spin the frame.

SO, any ideas WTH is going on? Why both rears? Both are new, both bought the same time as the fronts. The shoes seem to be close to the drum, so over travel of those isn't likely. The drivers side DOES lock the hub up with brake pedal pressure.

Ok, move on to the coolant...find ONE manifold stud weeping, pull the manifold, tightened the stud back together and things are peachy!

Fill the tranny fluid, and oil, all good!

Jury rig the starter and distributor. Try to turn it over. Starter engages, throws the starter gear out and....NOTHING...that's it. Dink with that, go buy a new battery (old one was free and turned out to be bad). Try again, SAME THING! Try hooking it up to my running pickup (12V) and give it a go, it worked...sorta, got about a 1/4 turn and that it for each push of the starter switch, and it really pulled on my running 12V system.

Oh, and Ed was stuck doing his own thing and couldn't make it over.

So my questions are these:

1. what's up with the wheel cylinders?

2. what's up with the starter (engine DOES turn by hand spinning the flywheel)?

3. is this level of frustration normal?

At least today I get to pick up my tires!

Edited April 24, 2011 by ggdad1951

[Merle Coggins]

Where did you purchase the wheel cylinders? Are you sure it's the cylinder piston seals leaking and not a fitting issue?

Have you had your starter tested or rebuilt? Maybe that is your starting issue.

Sounds like Murphy was haning around (anything that can go wrong will). I would have been pretty frustrated too.

Merle

[ggdad1951]

wheel cylinders purchased form VPW. The front piston on the pas side was hung up in the bore cockeyed. We got all the flare fittings to not leak, it's dripping out the bottom of the brake drum from the inside. And it scares me it's JUST the rears....

Starter rebuilt by local guy that Young Ed swears by.

Edited April 24, 2011 by ggdad1951

[JBNeal]

Welcome to the world of reviving a truck that has been parked for many many moons. I dunno if it makes any difference, but maybe if those brake parts soaked up some of that brake fluid for 24hrs, they might work like they should. Also, didja put new copper washers on the banjo fittings for the rear cylinders? As for the starter, didja have it bench tested or rebuilt by a starter guy? They can disassemble, clean & refurbish for a modest fee (generators too). Anyhow, it kinda sounds like a weak ground...my starter guy told me to route the ground cable to one of the starterbolts for better continuity.

BTW, I've learned that whenever ya get close to the finish line on a long term project, it's best to slow down, cuz all kinds of annoying problems seem to crop up.

[Plymouthy Adams]

first the rear cylinders..though new, how old and were were they purchased..new china made and poor rubber? it is anyones guess..however I would begin by mic'ing the bore and get quality rebuild kits from the local big box..the try again..and for bleeding, start with longest line to the shortest in sequence for better results faster..

as for the starter..is there something in there binding..did the starter get rebuilt with the worng tooth count on the bendix say for the later 12 volt series starter mating to the 6 volt starter ring or vice versa...may need to verify the tooth count of each to ensure proper parts and thus not locking up on engagement..

as for frustration, you have only begun to test your patinece on this job..Mr Murphy is everywhere..

take a minute to rest, get a coffee, reflect on the things found wrong, tackle only one at a time and eat that elephant in small bites..if you look at everythig in one big picture I assure you the frustration level will run quite high..

[Plymouthy Adams]

WOW three folks typing answers at the same time....don't get any better than this for support...!!!

[ggdad1951]

All new brake parts, copped washers and flare nut and whatnot. That cylinders as I said were brand new from VPW, and when we took the one apart it seemed to function well, just not well when it was all back together again. All gotten at the same time from VPW and why just the rears?

As for the starter, I'm gonna call the guy tomorrow and have a chat, something there doesn't seem right when it only really kinda works on 12V. He didn't replace the starter gears as far as I know. I checked continuity for the ground and we're good there.

[dodgebrice]

I think its bucause its to cold up in the north (LOL, I'm from IA originaly).

If the cylinder had a piston cocked then theirs a good chance the tolerances on the bore could be off, a machining problem. I have not heard of vpw is their stuff new or remanufactured?

[ggdad1951]

I think its bucause its to cold up in the north (LOL, I'm from IA originaly).

If the cylinder had a piston cocked then theirs a good chance the tolerances on the bore could be off, a machining problem. I have not heard of vpw is their stuff new or remanufactured?

Vintage Power Wagon stuff is all new (and they are in Iowa )

[Young Ed]

I agree the piston should not be able to **** in the bore. Better check those out. As for the starter I'm still thinking ground. Joe on the car side had some issues like this too due to bad grounds. 6v stuff is finicky in this area. Also if your rebuild is really tight it puts a lot of strain on the starter. Try pulling the plugs and see if it will turn it without fighting the compression.

[greg g]

Just a note on Bleeding procedure. I will assume you get the rears replaced with non leakers. Conventional Wisdom suggests that you start at the brake furthest from the master cylinder, that would be pass side rear, then move to drivers rear, pass front then drivers front. This gets the air out of the longest lines. Also another item I was taught years ago it to always put a small block of wood or similar item under the brake pedal so as to limit its travel. Enough stroke to accomplish the bleed, but not enough to forve the piston to its stop. The logic being that if the piston travels past where there may be a wear ridge in the MC, that pushig it past that may score the piston rubber causing lack of proper seal, and fluid passing back under pressure.

Does the starter spein freely when not in the vehicle??

[52b3b Joe]

For the cylinders, I've already bought some that had the cups in backwards, so maybe look into that?

As for the starter, sounds like a loose conection or a bad ground.

[Dave72dt]

Pistons shoud remain square in the cyl bore. Perhaps wrong size piston

12v on a 6v starter engages it really hard and may give it too much travel, binding the starter gear on the end of the armature. An extra washer to limit travel may help if that is the case. Depending on style of starter, some also had a center brg to keep the armature from flexing which would also bind them up and give poor perfromance. Fresh paint makes a pretty good insulator. Remove the paint from under the grounds and add a dab of dilectric grease. Help keep corrosion down and will not impede continuity.

These things always happen when its a holiday and the stores you may need to visit are closed, you have people and youself eager to witness a big event, you have multiple assembly personel ( left hand, righthand kind of thing ) with differing skill levels.

It's not so bad. You found them all before you went to the top of the hill for the bucket run.

[Young Ed]

Mark after a new O2 sensor and cat convertor my dakota seems to be fixed. I drove it to work today. Post an update of where you're at. Maybe I can witness the first run after all.

[ggdad1951]

Mark after a new O2 sensor and cat convertor my dakota seems to be fixed. I drove it to work today. Post an update of where you're at. Maybe I can witness the first run after all.

well, I'm going to pull the starter tonight and bench test it with the battery. I did check continuity between out "ground" (bolt stuck in extra hole in block) and the starter and had zero resistance and to the switch. The switch was open circut in the neutral position, and when engaged it had zero resistance. We were using jumper cables to run the power (I did say jury rigged right?), could that be an issue? Regardless, as I said, bench test tonight (gotta pull thoe oil filter lines tho to do that....BOOO)!

still unsure about the wheel cylinders....that mess I'llneed my buddies back around to play.

Potential next, as dave put it, "big event", might be Saturday....so I'll let you know Ed if you wanna swing by.

Put up ap picture of my finished wheels on the other wheel color thread, pretty happy with those!

[Dave72dt]

Can't really test your ground or starter switches with a VOM. Any continuity will read ZERO because you're not pushing much for amps. Starters take a bunch of amps to run Jumper cables are for assisting and unless you have really good ones won't get the job done. Put the battery where it belongs, get good cables installed. At some point, you'll have to do that anyway. Might as well be now.

[Young Ed]

There should be a way to bend the oil lines that the starter will come out. Of course might be a little late for that now. Did you put oil in it already too? Let me know about saturday I'll have to see what I'm up to.

[ggdad1951]

ok, over the lunch hour, I pulled the starter and bench tested it. Spun up no problem. So I think it IS a ground issue. I will go thru everything and get good metal to metal contact and reassemble (and then repaint over the exposed). I think where I got mixed up is the low voltage continuity vs. high voltage is indicated by Dave.....

Sigh, so much to learn!

Wheel cylinders still have me scratching the old noggin tho...

Ed, if I get her back together tonight and get her to spin up, Saturday looks like a good day to have people over for a true engine run.

[JBNeal]

Didn't know if ya tried this:

Install that starter, hook up your chassis battery cables, then take some good jumper cables and supplement your battery cables for testing. Hook the jumper cables from the battery to the starter and from the battery to one of the starter mounting bolts (scratch off the paint if ya have to). Engage starter, and if it works OK, then engage again & remove the ground jumper. If it drags then, wellsir you've got a grounding issue to straighten out.

[MBF]

While you've got that starter out you may want to clean the commutator (segmented copper portion that the brushes ride on) and the brushes. You can do this by removing the dust hstrap from around the front of the starter. If the comm is badly oxidized-a cleaning with a crocus type cloth will work wonders. Also-blow out the starter w compressed air to make sure there is no junk in it. If you take it apart grease the bushings on each end of the shaft and make sure that there isn't excessive play or wear in them-that could cause a short in the starter. If you're staying 6 volt, make sure you buy the proper guage battery cables. The ones used in 12v applications are too light. Good luck. Mike

[Dave72dt]

Don't repaint anything until you have the problem sorted out. Who knows, you may be removing it again. Amps, not volts. High amp draw. That's the reason for the heavy cables. The rest of the wires in your electrical system carry the same volts but the amperage they can carry is different. Too many amps and the smoke starts coming out of the wires.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Dave72dt
spelling, spacing -clumsy me.

[ggdad1951]

well got home from work and played with it all over again. Sanded down to bare metal on the bell housing and reset the starter. Went to the other side of the engine and scraped down to bare metal for the engine/bell housing bolts and set them...crossed my fingers.....and......nothing still. And this starter was completely rebuilt and supposedly tested by a good local guy, so....

Time to go play in the wood shop for a while where I actually know what I am doing!

[Dave72dt]

Do you have the ground end of the ground cable on bright , clean metal? How are the contacts inside the push button switch? New cables or old or jumper cables?

[Merle Coggins]

What size are the jumper cables? Most jumper cables are 8 or 12 gauge and would be quite small for carrying the current you need to crank this freshly rebuilt engine. I have a set of jumper cables that I made with 0 gauge welding cable. I've tried to use these for a temporary connection on a parts truck engine and even these heavy ones made for slow cranking, probably due to their length at 25 feet long. I suggest you install your battery and connect it with minimum 1 gauge cables. 0 or 00 would be even better. You'll be amazed at how much difference this will make to your starter.

Merle

[ggdad1951]

What size are the jumper cables? Most jumper cables are 8 or 12 gauge and would be quite small for carrying the current you need to crank this freshly rebuilt engine. I have a set of jumper cables that I made with 0 gauge welding cable. I've tried to use these for a temporary connection on a parts truck engine and even these heavy ones made for slow cranking, probably due to their length at 25 feet long. I suggest you install your battery and connect it with minimum 1 gauge cables. 0 or 00 would be even better. You'll be amazed at how much difference this will make to your starter.

Merle

not the biggest cables, an impulse buy back when I was flush with spending money at NAPA one day (since I DO live in MN and they DO come in handy). I'll be mounting my battery box this week and will reconnect with the real cables then. Meanwhile I firmly believe it IS a grounding issue. But taking the paint off the bell housing and scraping the block down by the mounting bolts still doesn't seem to give enough ground. Oh for knowing to not paint EVERYTHING when it was apart. I'd think the bolts should carry the ground well enough.

Question about the wheel cylinders. I looked up my invoice form VPW and they said "14' wheel cylinders" the rears on mine are 15"...could that be the issue? (edit) Just got off the phone w/ VPW, they said they are the same, but suggested (as I feared) that the drums are past their usable life and the brake shoes are traveling so far as to bypass. Anyone have the max wear specs on these old drums?

Edited April 26, 2011 by ggdad1951