New B-3-B owner with some basic questions

[ktb]

Quick update: 

 

Using the valve spring compressor I was able to tell that all of the exhaust valves are free, and all but #2 intake valves are stuck.  So I'm guessing old gas turned to varnish and locked those valve stems in the guides.

 

On to head removal...

[ktb]

I could use some advice on what to try next.

 

Yesterday I removed the head and got all the valves to move freely, some with the valve spring compressor and some manually.  There was some crusty carbon on the combustion chamber surfaces and a lot of crud in the water passages.  I will remove the freeze plugs and hose out the water jacket one of these days. Should I remove all the valves and springs and clean them up?

 

Today I removed the oil pan and cleaned it up.  There was maybe an inch of sludge in the deepest part of the pan, but the oil pickup was clean.

 

Sprayed PB Blaster on tops of pistons and parts of connecting rods from underneath, but I still can't get the crank to budge.  Wondering if I should keep tapping on the pistons or try to open up the timing cover to look in there.  I'm a little confused about the transmission - the rear wheels turn whether the shifter is in gear or not.  The clutch and everything aft spins freely, but no movement at all from the fluid drive coupler forward.  I've tried to turn the crank via the hand starting nut on the crank pulley quite a bit - if I turn CCW the nut loosens; if I turn CW there's no movement at all.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

[bkahler]

To me, that does not look like an engine where the pistons are stuck in the bores.  That leaves the valve tappets, the rod or main bearings, something in the connection between the crankshaft and the transmission or cam shaft frozen. 

 

Not much else I can think of that matches your description.

[Young Ed]

Another thought to consider is to pull the timing chain. Then you can turn the crank and cam separately and see what's going on 

[Los_Control]

Weeel, there is a old rumor going around about Grandpa's Suburban. 🤔

He got drunk one night and the old rumor goes, he hit a parked car and raced home so fast he created a rod knocking.

Then he painted the car cream white because thats what he had lying around .... He would never drive the car on the road and while moving it around his junk yard the bearing froze and locked the engine up .... car sat since the mid 1960's ... just a rumor of course. 🙄

 

I have a 1951 Ford V8 that was locked up tighter then a drum .... I found a mouse nest under the intake.

tried everything and could not get it to break free. I removed the timing chain and the crank was locked up.

I started by removing all the rods/pistons from the block ... all looked fine and was a fresh rebuild before engine was parked.

I then started on the main caps and again they looked fine ... except the last one by the rear seal ... had a drop of mouse pee on it and that was enough to lock it up.

Once I removed the bearing, looks fine ... the crank has a slight bluish color in the tiny spot .... I plan to assemble it with the same bearings .... but just a drop of mouse pee locked it up.

 

Your engine has a story to tell, you are this far into it .... would not hurt to just remove and inspect the bearings and then put them back where you found them .... you have 9 sets down there and just one bad one is all it takes.

 

[Merle Coggins]

17 hours ago, ktb said:

...  I'm a little confused about the transmission - the rear wheels turn whether the shifter is in gear or not.  The clutch and everything aft spins freely, but no movement at all from the fluid drive coupler forward.  I've tried to turn the crank via the hand starting nut on the crank pulley quite a bit - if I turn CCW the nut loosens; if I turn CW there's no movement at all.

 

Since the Fluid Drive is a fluid coupling, as you reference, there is no direct connection between the transmission and the engine. This is why you MUST have a working Parking Brake on FD equipped vehicles. If parked on a grade, even with the transmission in low gear, the vehicle will roll. At very low speeds there will be no power transfer through the Fluid Drive fluid coupler, which will allow the transmission to spin with very little resistance. When the engine is running the internal fins on the Impeller side of the FD will force the oil in the FD unit to transfer power to the Turbine side (output/clutch). The higher the RPM the more power will be transmitted through the FD. 

 

[John-T-53]

"JEEBUS" No. 2 !

Looking at all the heavy corrosion found in the tappet chambers on the previous page, this engine needs to be removed and placed on a stand and disassembled. Even if it turned over, it's in no shape to run with all that crap in there. There is likely corrosion that you can't see that is locking up the rotating assembly. The block needs to be thoroughly cleaned - baked, tanked, blasted, and inspected before proceeding. You might already have a boat anchor on your hands, but you won't know until you can have a shop inspect it. I'm trying to save you time from making more snausage here. Hopefully it's still good!

Edited December 19, 2024 by John-T-53

[ktb]

3 hours ago, John-T-53 said:

"JEEBUS" No. 2 !

Looking at all the heavy corrosion found in the tappet chambers on the previous page, this engine needs to be removed and placed on a stand and disassembled. Even if it turned over, it's in no shape to run with all that crap in there. There is likely corrosion that you can't see that is locking up the rotating assembly. The block needs to be thoroughly cleaned - baked, tanked, blasted, and inspected before proceeding. You might already have a boat anchor on your hands, but you won't know until you can have a shop inspect it. I'm trying to save you time from making more snausage here. Hopefully it's still good!

 

I thought the same initially, but the "heavy corrosion" in the valve spring chamber is actually dried oil, not rust - it will clean up nicely.  Some of the valves were sticking initially, but they are no longer the problem.

[ktb]

6 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

 

Since the Fluid Drive is a fluid coupling, as you reference, there is no direct connection between the transmission and the engine. This is why you MUST have a working Parking Brake on FD equipped vehicles. If parked on a grade, even with the transmission in low gear, the vehicle will roll. At very low speeds there will be no power transfer through the Fluid Drive fluid coupler, which will allow the transmission to spin with very little resistance. When the engine is running the internal fins on the Impeller side of the FD will force the oil in the FD unit to transfer power to the Turbine side (output/clutch). The higher the RPM the more power will be transmitted through the FD. 

 

 

Thank you, I can scratch the transmission off the list of potential sticking points.

[Bobacuda]

While you are cleaning oil stuff, make sure you clean the lines too, and from the oil filter. Also, remove the bypass oil pressure valve, clean that area all out, and don’t stretch the spring. 
 

If that valve sticks, the oil pressure will destroy your gauge and make an oily mess in your cab. Don’t ask me how I know…

 

The first attached photo is a generic description of the system. The second photo is the driver’s side of the engine. The bypass spring and valve are behind that square-head plug at the bottom of the photo. 

[Bobacuda]

So, I just had a messy thought that might help you.  
 

Take an old oil pump and grind off the gear that the cam turns. Prime and reinstall the oil pump. Cut the shaft off a straight slot screwdriver and put that in your drill. 

 

Now you can use your drill to reach through the hole the distributer mounts in and spin the oil pump (priming the system).  This will allow you to lube the crank and cam bearings. Once the oil circulates, it will make a mess, unless the drainpan is on. The pan doesn’t need new gaskets or all of its bolts at this time. 
 

If it was mine, I would consider This. Bolt the drainpan back on, put 4 qts of the ATF&acetone “penetrating oil” and circulate that through the system. With the top off the oil filter canister, you can watch for flow.
 

When you are convinced it’s flowed everywhere, let it sit a few hours to eat crud out of oul passages. Repeat.  This should break down the old crud in the engine. 
 

Now see if you can get the engine to rotate. 
 

I’ve never done this, but what do you have to lose?

[JBNeal]

Maybe that original oil pump is locked up...that's been an issue lately that can be problematic...

 

 

[ktb]

Last week I removed the main and rod bearing caps and didn't find any unusual wear.  I cleaned the surfaces and applied assembly lube and torqued them back on.

 

This week I'd like to remove the timing cover and have a few questions before I begin.  To jack up the front of the engine to remove the front engine mount support, should I put the oil pan back on first and lift directly on the pan, or is it safe to leave it off and lift up on one front lower corner of the block?  

 

The timing chain/sprockets are pretty much the last things I can think to look at to figure out why the engine won't turn.  If I can find an old oil pump to pre-oil the system as Bobacuda suggested, I'd like to do that.  Otherwise I'm pretty well stumped.  

 

Is it okay to try to rotate the crank with main and/or rod bearing caps off, or is that a bad idea?

 

If I do manage to get the engine turning without pulling it out, is it advisable to replace piston rings with the engine in place, or is that something that should only be done with the engine out?

 

I'm planning to replace the front engine mount, as the rubber is pretty well deteriorated - I've seen two different kinds advertised (photos below).  Mine definitely looks like the top one, but it made me curious what the bottom one is for...  Thanks!

 

 

[Los_Control]

58 minutes ago, ktb said:

is it safe to leave it off and lift up on one front lower corner of the block? 

I would try and put a block of wood between the jack and block. The larger area the wood covers the more the weight will be distributed. ..... No idea how much space you are looking at, the more area covered the less stressful it would be on the block. ..... probably could lift it without wood ... I would want to protect it all I could.

 

1 hour ago, ktb said:

The timing chain/sprockets are pretty much the last things I can think to look at to figure out why the engine won't turn. 

@Bobacuda is correct. By removing the timing chain, this allows the crank to be turned without the cam and lifters.

It is a common trouble shooting task to determine if the issue is in the top end or the lower end .... possible it can be both.

Will be easier to separate the two and fix individual issues.

Example: I had a engine with a frozen bearing and 3 stuck lifters. With the chain removed I found the bad bearing and got the lower end to turn ... then just needed to work on the lifters.

 

1 hour ago, ktb said:

Is it okay to try to rotate the crank with main and/or rod bearing caps off, or is that a bad idea?

I would at least have the bearings and caps in place, even if the bolts were snugged up by hand .... just to support the weight of the crank .... Bolted to the flywheel leaves a lot of weight hanging on the cast crank bolting flange.

 

1 hour ago, ktb said:

If I do manage to get the engine turning without pulling it out, is it advisable to replace piston rings with the engine in place, or is that something that should only be done with the engine out?

I plan to replace mine in the vehicle after I measure and verify the bores are OK.

This is how it was done in the 30's-60's along with valve replacement. Also at least lap the valves .... the seats get rusty when sitting with the valves open.

I would suggest replacing the rear main seal while in there .... they all seem to leak a little.

 

Also replacing the bad rubber mounts is a good idea, as they get old and compress, they will throw things out of alignment such as shift linkage .... replacing the mount can improve shifting gears.

 

Good luck.

[Dave72dt]

at least a couple main caps in place.  If rod caps are off you could try pushing up on the rods to determine how stuck the pistons may be.   Corner of the block is fine.  the block isn't going to flex.  You could put 2 x 4  across the pan rails where it doesn't touch the crank for as lifting point also.

[ktb]

Today I got the crankshaft pulley hub removed.  It did not want to come off.  After a few broken tools, weeping and gnashing of teeth, it came off.  

 

It looks like someone whaled on the inner front of it with a hammer and chisel once upon a time, and the shaft has an obvious groove.  Does it look repairable with a speedi-sleeve, or should it be replaced (if they are even available)?

 

 

 

 

Hopefully soon I can get the timing cover off and figure out why this engine won't turn.  In the meantime I'm becoming excellent at breaking tools.

[bkahler]

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see why you can't reuse the pulley.  I would definitely install a speedi-sleeve (or similar) to ensure you get a good oil seal.  Just be sure and use sealant on the shaft before you install the speed-sleeve.

 

I use speedi-sleeves on every old vehicle I work on.  I think they are a great invention and life saver.

 

[JBNeal]

Maybe check to see if the pulley is true to the hub...damage during removal can cause a wobble.

[ggdad1951]

7 hours ago, JBNeal said:

Maybe check to see if the pulley is true to the hub...damage during removal can cause a wobble.

 

good idea

[bkahler]

9 hours ago, JBNeal said:

Maybe check to see if the pulley is true to the hub...damage during removal can cause a wobble.

 

Heck, it's an old truck, what's a little wobble.... 😄

[ktb]

I don't know what checking trueness involves, but the thing was rock solid stuck on there.  Also, I have no idea how I'm going to get it back on to center the seal, back off to tighten the cover bolts, and back on again once the speedi sleeve is installed.  I've already destroyed O'Reilly's puller loaner tool.

[John-T-53]

13 hours ago, JBNeal said:

Maybe check to see if the pulley is true to the hub...damage during removal can cause a wobble.

 

Wobbles can be corrected by mounting the pulley in a lathe and using a dial indicator and hammer to straighten.

 

1 hour ago, ktb said:

I don't know what checking trueness involves, but the thing was rock solid stuck on there.  Also, I have no idea how I'm going to get it back on to center the seal, back off to tighten the cover bolts, and back on again once the speedi sleeve is installed.  I've already destroyed O'Reilly's puller loaner tool.

 

You still have bigger fish to fry, the pulley is not a huge item. Clean & polish the snout and hole with red scotchbrite. file down any burrs or bulges from hammers.

[bkahler]

 

This is how I checked my pulley for possible run out.

[ktb]

Timing chain slack question - I found nothing in the B-3 Shop Manual. 

 

Old forum topic stated "specs say change at 1/2" slack, measured between the sprockets on the bottom of the chain." (corrected from 3/4")

 

Not sure what this means.  Push the chain from the bottom side up toward the gap between the two sprockets and measure that deflection?  Thanks!

[Los_Control]

To check timing chain slack, you need to access the timing cover on your engine, then use a wrench or tool to rotate the crankshaft while observing the movement of the timing chain between the sprockets

 

What you are looking at is how far the crank moves before the cam moves .... the cam needs to move with the crank/pistons ... so it can open the valves at correct timing and it also controls the spark.

 

A chain needs a certain amount of play to function correctly ... it can not be too tight it will cause issues.

When looking at the longest stretch in the chain, you can move it outwards towards the case 1/2"

I believe this is what the manual means with 1/2" play.

Same time you can push the chain in 1/2" ... so technically you might call this 1" play?

 

The goal is to have the cam move when the crank moves .... you also notice if you turn the crank in the opposite direction, the slack is now on the other side .... this happens while you are driving and you let off of the gas and then step on it ... the slack goes back and forth and the cam is also floating in and out of time with a loose chain.

Just use common sense when looking at wear on a chain. .... Generally is a good idea to change it since you are already there and is a lot of work to get to later.

 

With all that said, the engine will run with a stretched chain .... I had a Toyota pickup the chain stretched so far it was slapping against the side of the cover and rubbed a hole in it.

I had a jeep the chain stretched far enough that it skipped a couple of teeth on the gear and would not run.

Your measurements are a guideline to use common sense.