Rebuilt Starter Won't Start

[Bingster]

Thanks. I know for sure that the starter spins.  It's the relay that's bad. 

[maok]

When you say relay, do you mean the solenoid?

 

If so, the wiring diagram shows that the solenoid receives it's power from the starter switch, which in turn is supplied by the fuel gauge. Also, the solenoid is grounded via the generator.  

[Bingster]

On my original 4 post starter, a two-post relay sits piggy back on top of the two larger posts that go to the starter motor and the hot wire from the battery. So when I say "relay" I mean that separate part of the total solenoid.

 

Well, even though I have installed the new rebuilt starter on the car, I just cannot get it to do anything except spark. That it does very well.  This is the new 3-post solenoid the guy put on the my starter for me. I've hooked up the proper terminals and jumped here and there and have tried every combination but no go. I can't even get the starter to spin.

 

There must be a short somewhere in the wiring.  Why else would I just be getting sparks?  I've got to get a new voltmeter and learn how to use it because mine is stone age.  I've looked at dozens of You Tube videos on how to troubleshoot starter problems, but my problem doesn't seem so simple as having the wires in the wrong place.  

 

When I did put my probes from with antiquated voltmeter to the proper terminals on the solenoid they did, from what I can tell,  registered  properly on the meter.  But as I say, my old voltmeter registers by a needle and various scales and I don't know if I'm reading it right or even if I have the right scale.  I know, get a new one and learn how to use it.  I'll save all of you the trouble and kick myself in the pants.

 

But I was hoping it would be as simple as hooking up the right wires.

[Bingster]

The solenoid that guy put on is 6v, but are solenoids specifically wired for positive or negative ground? I figured it wouldn't matter, but my batting average hasn't been very good of late.

[maok]

Best you pull the starter out before you cause a fire.

 

Post some pics of what you have so we can guide you on testing it.

 

If you are not confident with a voltmeter, you may need some one who is 

[Sniper]

55 minutes ago, Bingster said:

The solenoid that guy put on is 6v, but are solenoids specifically wired for positive or negative ground? I figured it wouldn't matter, but my batting average hasn't been very good of late.

 

If they are then it is usually marked.  Which is not to say someone didn't mark it.

 

I would pull it out and test it on the work bench using jumper cables and a battery.  Try is positive ground and if it doesn't work try it negative ground, that would answer the question for you.

 

 

[Bingster]

Yeah, out it comes again. 

[kencombs]

I have never seen a solenoid or relay that was polarity sensitive.  There may be some but I've never encountered one.   The magnetic field in the relay coil attracts an iron core that moves and make contact happen, passing current through that portion of the solenoid.  

Forget the starter part for a bit and test the relay by itself.  Does it click when power is applied to one small terminal and ground to the other?

 

 

 

[Bingster]

Actually, before I took the starter in to be rebuilt, there was a small click when I applied power to the relay at the smaller terminal where the push button on the dash would have been connected. At this time the starter did spin as well. So the starter worked but the solenoid didn't but it made a click.

 

Now, after having a new solenoid put on the old starter motor, the starter doesn't spin and the solenoid makes no sound but everything sparks! There's plenty of power coming from the new battery.

 

I'm gonna have to take the starter out of the car, go back to when the starter spins, and replace the old Auto Lite relay with a NOS Auto Lite relay that I have.  That's what I wanted the guy to do, but he went ahead and put on a newer solenoid. And then make certain on the bench that the damn things works before I bolt it onto the car.

[Sam Buchanan]

Yes, get everything working on the bench so you can easily see what's going on. You don't need much of a meter, I have several of these $7 cheapies scattered around:

 

https://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-digital-multimeter-59434.html

 

[Sniper]

9 hours ago, kencombs said:

I have never seen a solenoid or relay that was polarity sensitive.  There may be some but I've never encountered one.   The magnetic field in the relay coil attracts an iron core that moves and make contact happen, passing current through that portion of the solenoid.  

Forget the starter part for a bit and test the relay by itself.  Does it click when power is applied to one small terminal and ground to the other?

 

 

 

 

Relays can be polarity sensitive, they usually show a diode on them to indicate that.  But these are generally ones you'd see on something light a head light setup, not a starter.  The purpose of the diode would be to control back EMF when the magnetic field in the coil collapses as the relay is de-energized.  It's a noise thing mostly for the computers int eh car.

[Bingster]

I just called the guy who put the new solenoid on, and he said that he was worried when he tested the starter that it was taking a helluva lot of power to get it to work. He suggested I try to make it work using a battery charger. At any rate, he said to bring it back in.  I asked him if the positive ground of my car might have something to do with the starter not working. He wasn't sure. He did say that he changed over all of his 6v cars to 12v cause they weren't dependable or something to that affect. I would be happy just to get my $$ back at this point and work on the starter myself. Seems like there were too many things he either didn't know or could figure to try out.

[Plymouthy Adams]

you need to either learn to do this or find a capable shop to toss your money at....

[desoto1939]

2 hours ago, Bingster said:

I just called the guy who put the new solenoid on, and he said that he was worried when he tested the starter that it was taking a helluva lot of power to get it to work. He suggested I try to make it work using a battery charger. At any rate, he said to bring it back in.  I asked him if the positive ground of my car might have something to do with the starter not working. He wasn't sure. He did say that he changed over all of his 6v cars to 12v cause they weren't dependable or something to that affect. I would be happy just to get my $$ back at this point and work on the starter myself. Seems like there were too many things he either didn't know or could figure to try out.

Bingster: was the mechanic a general modern day mechanic or just a friend or did you take the entire unit to an Electric motos shop that has experience in solely repaing, Generators, starters and voltage regulators?  If he was any type of reputable  mechanic and has experience on repairing starter  motor he should have been able to fully test the unit.  A good generator repair can put the unit on a growler to test the winding and basically the starter motor is similar. He should have checked the brushes and cleaned the unit and found if there were any issue with the commutator and also the bearings.

 

So i would suggest that you find a good generator starter repair facility in your area.  If you do not have the personal level of working on one of these units then farm it out to a person that has the strong ability to do the work and will guarantee his work and stand by it for 60-90 days.  He should be able to bench test the unit to prove that it does work and not just jerry rig the starter.  Do Not assume every mechanic knows how to fix everything.

 

When you asked if the positive ground had anything to do with the issue and he answered he was not sure that should have given you hint that maybe he did not know enough to fix the issue.  Grounding either positive and or negative does affect how things work. But he should already know that.  Also he stated that it took a helluva lot of power to get it to work.  That also would have made me think how did he test it, since the unit was not trying to turn over the engine.  The unit was basically free standing and there would not have been any real drag on the starter. It should have spun very easily since it was not engaging into the flywheel ring gear.

 

Please let us know what was the experience of the mechanic.

 I doubt that this guy had the experience to test and repair the starter.

Rich Hartung  

[desoto1939]

Binster and also everyone attached is a printout from my Autolite  Maintenance and operation electrical Equipment manual and the section on starter motor.

 

Binster review this document and verify if the mechanic did any of the things to checkout your starter and also the spec on the last page.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

Autolite starter testing.pdf

[Los_Control]

Only thing I will add .... STOMP STARTERS RULE!  

 

Sounds like maybe your mechanic is learning ..... Lets give them credit for being honest .... working on 75 year old technology is not something everyone does.

Just the fact he said I do not know .... instead of filling you with BS .... deserves some credit.

 

These old cars today offer a learning experience, either working on the car yourself or choosing a proper mechanic to work on it for you.

While it may be disappointing to learn you paid money and the desired outcome was not reached. ..... You learned something from it.

 

A:, the mechanic was honest and asked you to bring the item back. Lets see what comes from bringing it back to them.

B:, You will be better equipped with knowledge and what to ask the next time you hire someone to help you.

 

Life itself is one big learning experience, how we deal with it is up to us.

 

[Bingster]

I just removed the starter and I think I see the reason for two problems.

 

First, there is a notch in the rear of the plunging cylinder that is supposed to allow the yoke cylinder to clear the cylinder.  I can't say if this is standard or unique to this situation, but in any event, the yoke assembly does not clear the rear of the plunger.  As it looks now, they are touching and rubbing together. This may account for the inordinate amount of power needed for the solenoid to pull in the pmunger.

 

Second, these two parts touching may account for why every terminal combination I tried sparks when touched together.  Improperly grounded or what?

 

I also sense that there might be some friction when the plunger is supposed to be pushed into the starter case.

 

In other words, this damn thing wouldn't work from the git go.

 

Now, this guy owns a Johnston auto parts chain outlet.  I do not now  think he is a specialist at electrical parts. He is not a friend. (especially now).  He did come with a recommendation from a car dealership, but it was more of a "he knew where to find a part that was hard to get" type of thing, not "he fixed a part that was hard to fix."

 

I had asked the car dealership who could rebuild a starter in our area and he was the guy mentioned.

 

I'm not even going to bother going back there. I'll eat the hundred bucks, but as this starter is also "hard to find" I don't want him to do any more damage. I never authorized him to put on an aftermarket starter.

 

Sooo, I at least want to bench test this thing "as is" to see what it does. I don't think it will do anything. I think the solenoid is too mismatched to the starter.  Then I want to remove the cover from the old Auto Lite solenoid and take a look inside. I'd like to replace it with my NOS relay that is identical, and then test the solenoid again. I'm not totally incompetent  with a soldering gun.  I would rather find somebody who could do it, but I think this Auto Lite solenoid throws people a curve with that fourth ground post for the relay. That's why it was easier and less work for the guy who did mine to just replace it. I go along with the fella who said to learn to repair certain parts myself.

 

The biggest thing I did wrong was not to bench test the starter myself before I put it back into the car.  I just figured he did it.  Now that I have it back out I feel confident that when all is said and done I'll have a starter that works.  And BTW, I greatly appreciate all of you who have helped me out along the way.

 

 

[Bingster]

Thanks for the info, Rich. Will be a big help if I do it myself.

[desoto1939]

Binster The picture of the starter with the correct selinoid that I posted a picture of was currently on Ebay. Might want to communicat with the seller to see what model starter and it might fit your desoto and the condition of the starter.

 

Rich

[Bingster]

Thanks. Pricey.

[desoto1939]

14 hours ago, Bingster said:

Thanks. Pricey.

binster: no not really when you consider that it has the starter motor and the correct selinoid.  Those selinoids are very hard to find even at swap meets like Hershey.  I have seen them go for way over $100 just for the selinoid plus shipping even thought they were used from 1946-48 so you would think that there would be alot available..

So if you can not get your unit to work properly then you have to options, by this unit and ask alot of question prior to putting an offer on the table or find a qualified starter repair shop that has the experience of working with this type of generator and specific starter selinoid.  The repair shop should have the growler equiptment to check the armature.  Also specifically what the guy will test and how and just be a replace and hope it works.  You are the customer so be specific with what you want done and when you pickup the unit you want them to demonstrate that the unit spins with out any issues.  Yes this is going to cost some money but if you can not start your car then you have a very expensive boat anchor in your garage To be in this hobby there will be times when you have to spend good old hard cash and have the experts do the work. You have to know your limitations.

 

Rich Hartung

[Bingster]

I'm gonna see if the NOS solenoid relay I have works and if I can get the starter working.  If not, then I'll begin looking again for other possibilities. But I still would like to know if there is any replacement starter that will fit for those who have S-11's out there?

[Bingster]

NOS relay I bought works!!  Old relay points were worn down to the nub. No wonder the starter didn't work.  When I put it all back together I'll post.

[Sniper]

Bench test it before you install it, lol

[desoto1939]

3 hours ago, Bingster said:

NOS relay I bought works!!  Old relay points were worn down to the nub. No wonder the starter didn't work.  When I put it all back together I'll post.

 

So are you saying that the starter that the mechanic put on a 3 connector selinoid the popints in the selinoid were bad or did you take your old starter motor apart and look at the internal onthe starter.  So how did the mechanic even test the starter with the points being so worn down?

 

I would not use that guy again for any repairs.

 

Rich H