Tire Speed Ratings

[Eneto-55]

Now I'm REALLY confused.  Not from you all on here, but I was doing some searching over on the Honda forum, where I participate a bit.  (The Admins are rather snarky for my taste.  If something has been discussed before, the thread gets locked straight-a-way.  If they think that the answer is lurking somewhere on the forum, and it probably is, but finding it can be a chore - they smart off at the poor new-comer.)  So I didn't want to post a question there, and just get told off.  So, the search brings up a couple of old threads (and locked, of course) that say that Honda quit using TPMS devices after the 2013 year.  

They say:

indirect TPMS sensors which uses the ABS/VSA system

Then another says:

No sensors required. 2013 was the last year for that system.

In a more recent discussion, a guy asks:

I have a 2019 CRV Touring. Trying to get ready for this vehicle's first winter and was wondering on the following:
1. Can I install snow tires without TPMS? Will i get an annoying sound in the cockpit if I do this? I know in the ford fusion they make some sound to prompt the driver. Toyota's usually just prompt with a blinking inidcator. Not sure for CRVs?
2. Can I install a 235/65 R17 tires? The OEM is 235/60R18? 18"s are very pricey.

 

The answer given is:

There are no TPMS sensors in the wheels, so you won't have a problem, there's a recalibration procedure on the screen that's very easy.

Then another guy chimes in with:

Yep. As @ondarvr says, the TPMS system in newer CR-Vs bases its calculations on the amount of revolutions per wheel, and if one wheel differs from the others, the system determines that the tire pressure is low.

 

My comments:

- I thought all modern vehicles had those TPMS devices.

- His tire choice is exactly what I chose, and have on order.  (Same original tire & wheel size, same smaller wheel with same higher sidewall tire.)

- Never heard of this revolutions per wheel comparison approach before.

[oldodge41]

I have seen this before. Don't know which manufacturers use it. A quick Google search produced this:

Indirect TPMS works differently, without the use of air pressure sensors in the tyres. Indirect systems detect a loss in pressure using the ABS wheel speed sensors to read the relative wheel speed to create pressure readings to compare between all 4 tyres.

[kencombs]

34 minutes ago, oldodge41 said:

I have seen this before. Don't know which manufacturers use it. A quick Google search produced this:

Indirect TPMS works differently, without the use of air pressure sensors in the tyres. Indirect systems detect a loss in pressure using the ABS wheel speed sensors to read the relative wheel speed to create pressure readings to compare between all 4 tyres.

That's one of the reasons some manufacturers caution about replacing tires in sets.   Tire wear must be close to equal to keep from upsetting the computer.   Also really messes up the anti-lock and anti-skid software.  

 

I prefer simple.  Earlier Mopar, like my 07 minivan, use the same sensor in all 4 wheels and only send a low pressure warning, no position or actual pressure info.  Enough for me to check the tires, but not so complicated to require any resets or relearns like others.   I bought a full set of aftermarket sensors for less than one for my daughters GM product and required no visit to a shop to relearn or purchase of another tool.  Just put 'em in and drive!

[Eneto-55]

42 minutes ago, kencombs said:

That's one of the reasons some manufacturers caution about replacing tires in sets.   Tire wear must be close to equal to keep from upsetting the computer.   Also really messes up the anti-lock and anti-skid software.  

 

I prefer simple.  Earlier Mopar, like my 07 minivan, use the same sensor in all 4 wheels and only send a low pressure warning, no position or actual pressure info.  Enough for me to check the tires, but not so complicated to require any resets or relearns like others.   I bought a full set of aftermarket sensors for less than one for my daughters GM product and required no visit to a shop to relearn or purchase of another tool.  Just put 'em in and drive!

I agree - I prefer the even older tech - no TPMS, no ABS.  Leave it to me to know when & how much to brake, and let me monitor the tire pressure myself.  I DO like Cruise, however, on long trips.  (Gives my right leg & foot a break, and keeps me from speeding w/o knowing it.)

Edited November 30, 2023 by Eneto-55

[Sniper]

My BMW has a TPMS system I dislike.  It will not show you tire pressures until you have driven the vehicle some.  Which means if the tire is low when I get into the car, and it would be most convenient to address, it tells me nothing till I am tootling down the road then it'll pop up a warning, meaning I have to find somewhere safe to pull off the road and address it.   How handy, my work truck will warn me as soon as I start it up.

 

Anyway, if your system read tire pressures and shows you PSI it's a direct system, otherwise it's an indirect.  Of course there is the real useful warning that just tells you a tire is low and not which one, how handy, lol.

[Eneto-55]

50 minutes ago, Sniper said:

My BMW has a TPMS system I dislike.  It will not show you tire pressures until you have driven the vehicle some.  Which means if the tire is low when I get into the car, and it would be most convenient to address, it tells me nothing till I am tootling down the road then it'll pop up a warning, meaning I have to find somewhere safe to pull off the road and address it.   How handy, my work truck will warn me as soon as I start it up.

 

Anyway, if your system read tire pressures and shows you PSI it's a direct system, otherwise it's an indirect.  Of course there is the real useful warning that just tells you a tire is low and not which one, how handy, lol.

OK.  Your description of direct vs indirect really confirms that our 2019 Honda uses the indirect approach.  Recently had a tire low warning.  Checked all of the tires, none were more than a pound or 2 different, yet the message persisted.  Then I read someplace that some spare tires have a sensor in them as well, and it could be the spare that is tripping the warning.  So I checked it, and yeah, it was well below the super high pressure recommendation.  But no change - the warning is there every time we start the vehicle.  According to the manual, you're supposed to drive the car for at least a half an hour at speeds between 30 and 60 MPH, with no stops longer than 45 seconds.  (How do you make a 40 second stop while still between 30 & 60 MPH?!?)  We do not have that kind of road conditions around here, and so it's still popping up.  We did make a trip up to Cleveland since then, but that would be over 60 MPH.  I suspect now that there is a problem with some sensor or another, and it's just annoying, because we seldom drive anyplace that meets those requirements.

 

(Our 2010 Dodge Grand Caravan has the type that just says a tire is low.  But at least after I regulate all of them, it DOES go away.)

Edited December 1, 2023 by Eneto-55

[greg g]

There is a thingie in the menu on the Honda.  On the dreaded touch screen push the home button, find vehicle settings.  Select tire monitor and push recalibrate.   This may or may not work.  If it's cold out, drive about 10miles or so to get some warmth in the tires before you do the reset.  There may be a better description of the process in the owners manual.  It worked a while back on our 2018 after a tire rotation as part of scheduled maintenance threw the warning. My brother who worked as a Honda service manager for 30 years said they are supposed to have a tolerance of 4 psi. Give or take. As they get older, they seem to get less tolerant.

Edited December 1, 2023 by greg g

[kencombs]

2 hours ago, Sniper said:

 

 

Anyway, if your system read tire pressures and shows you PSI it's a direct system, otherwise it's an indirect.  Of course there is the real useful warning that just tells you a tire is low and not which one, how handy, lol.

The latter is the one on my minivan.   And the one I prefer as it requires no learning, or position ID when rotating tires, replacing tires or sensors.  Just put 'em on and drive it.  If I get a warning it takes all of 15 seconds to ID the low one by eye.   And I haven't been required to buy another tool to deal with them.

[Sniper]

7 minutes ago, kencombs said:

If I get a warning it takes all of 15 seconds to ID the low one by eye

 

That doesn't work so well with low profile or run flat tires.  With the balloons that normally come on our cars, yes. 

[kencombs]

25 minutes ago, Sniper said:

 

That doesn't work so well with low profile or run flat tires.  With the balloons that normally come on our cars, yes. 

My little van has 65 series tires and if they are really low it's obvious.  However if the sensor is telling me that it is just a little down, like recent cold weather triggers, I can't tell and  it's time to get out the gauge and check them all anyway.     Still prefer that style for overall ease of maintenance.  

 

An friend of a friend had  car with the indirect type and severely damaged a tire.   One of a set with maybe 60-75% of the tread left.  He had two options, buy 1 new tire and have it ground down to closely match it's mates or buy 4.   Neither were great, but he opted for all new.   Sometimes tech has indirect costs.

[greg g]

My other car is an 07 mitsubishi outlander.  I have a slow leak in the drivers side rear. It takes about 4 to 5 weeks to trip the sensor.  It doesn't indicate which.  When I need to air up, I check the pressure.  I run at 34 psi.  Sometimes there is a 3 ps.i difference, sometimes it gets to 8psi.  I find the whole thing about asuseful as a screen door on a submarine. 

 

Don't get me started on lane keeping assistance or Adaptive cruise control. Blind spot monitoring is the best of that whole suite of electronic BS.

Edited December 1, 2023 by greg g

[Plymouthy Adams]

and with modern vehicles, especially AWD you can get things like traction control warning from the same said sensor for this system base solely on the computer fed tech data of tire size and rear axle ratio (rev per mile) is the computer reference all future sensor data output is compared and causes the flag to be set.  Where the front tires due to the manner they are constantly changing load and position during driving and wear quicker.  My neighbor could not grasp that concept, my bud also does not think tire wear is relevant in his traction control alarm case whereas, new tires corrected all issues....same sensor, no resets, no computer reprogramming.  Modern cars have lots of modern issues....the computer is smart, but they are not programmed to prorate wear but offset only by a preset +/-value off stock programming

[Sniper]

6 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

the computer is smart, but they are not programmed to prorate wear but offset only by a preset +/-value off stock programming

 

That really is an issue with the programmers.  My BMW has no issue dealing with those things.  There is good and there is good enough and then there is good enough for government work.  lol.  Since most of this is driven by regulation the OEM's aren't obligated to make it good or even good enough, just good enough to for government work (meet the regs).

 

15 minutes ago, greg g said:

Don't get me started on lane keeping assistance or Adaptive cruise control.

 See above comment to PA, lol.  I drive two vehicles with adaptive cruise.  2015 535 and a 2022 Silverado.  The older BMW version is substantially better than the newer GM version, the GM one randomly brakes on a hill, up or down not traffic around me, and it's like the brakes are an on/off switch.  I guess that's one way to clear your 6 when you have a tailgater.  You can turn it off but I find it more useful than not in most cases, just not very polished or smooth in the GM version.  No complaints at all about the BMW implementation.

 

Only the GM has active lane keeping.  Got pulled over when I had less than 500 miles on the truck because of it.  I was headed home from a job on a narrow, no shoulder, two lane highway with a 75 mph speed limit.  DPS truck was headed the opposite way and I drifted over to the right to maximize clearance.  Lane assist, unknown to me at the time, pulled me left, I went right and it was a fight.  I had no idea what was going on and though I was losing my mind.  Trooper turned around and pulled me over.  No ticket, though he said he was concerned I might have been having a medical issue going on lol.  Yeah, i was losing my mind.  You can turn it off, but it is not a permanent off, turns back on next time you start up the truck.  The BMW's lane keeping just vibrates the steering wheel on which ever side you are drifting towards.  Kind of like Dad popping the back of your head when you aren't paying attention.

 

[Veemoney]

 

2 hours ago, Eneto-55 said:

Recently had a tire low warning.  Checked all of the tires, none were more than a pound or 2 different, yet the message persisted.  Then I read someplace that some spare tires have a sensor in them as well, and it could be the spare that is tripping the warning.  So I checked it, and yeah, it was well below the super high pressure recommendation.  But no change - the warning is there every time we start the vehicle. 

Not sure how your set-up works.

My 2010 Ram 1500 has 20" tires and the TPMS idiot light to tell you need air. The batteries in any of the TPMS sensors mounted in each tire go dead sometimes or a sensor malfunctions, if that happens your idiot light will stay on for the system at least it does on my truck. I have been running for a couple years now with that light on with no issues and it doesn't bother the emissions tests when I go through.

[greg g]

My daughter has a Crv.  She needed new rear tires.  She ordered two from WallyWorld.  Same brand as she recently (3000 miles ago) had replaced for the fronts at WW when she had a flet while out of town..  She oedered the same brand and size size sent here. She went to WW to have them installed.  They told her she need to replace the fronts as well it was company policy.  She told them to stick it.  I set her up with my shop they charged her 27 bucks to mount balance, and reset the tms.  When I spoke to him he said he had a customer that had an issue with new vs. Older pair.  He said they brought the car in, put the old ones on the pass side, the new ones on drivers.  Sensors reset no further issues.  Apparently the computer now thinks the discrepancy is due to the car constantly turning left and the difference is now within parameters.

[DonaldSmith]

My 2011 Enclave, with all-wheel drive, needs all four tires the same diameter, or the differentials make the computer crazy, or everything wears out, or something bad happens.   If I mount a compact spare, the computer is supposed to figure it out, and disconnects the rear drive.