The Cooling System...Pushing It's Limitations

[Bryan]

18 hours ago, keithb7 said:

Not a bad suggestion Ken, but 2nd gear has been tried as well. To no improvement. Higher RPMS, and no better cooling was offered. I don't lug my engine. 

 

All the factors add up it seems:

Long steep hill up to 11% grade

80F-105F summer weather

New re-cored 2-row rad

Clean rad fins

Clean, good condition stock 4 blade fan

No airflow obstructions

4 blade belt driven fan

7 psi  rad cap

50/50 glycol & water

Sparkling clean brass water distribution Tube

Block removed, hot tanked. Like new inside. Engine rebuilt

New Water pump

New Hoses

New Belt

New Thermostat

Various ignition timing trials, no improvement

No engine lugging

 

 

 

 

Mother in Law in or out?  ?

[Bryan]

18 hours ago, Sniper said:

This is the fan I am running.

 

You might want to consider one of these fans.  Might want to see what the center hole diameter is though.

 

Found a 6v fan with specs.  It's rated at 1248 cfm, 15.4A draw.  My fan is rated at 1400 cfm on low and it will cool the coolant to the point the thermostat closes at 100+ degrees.  At idle though, I haven;t road tested it yet.

I saved the link. If I get mine running and try it out a few months to get the feel of it, might start then with improvements.

[keithb7]

So many factors Lol. M-I-L not factored in. Riding solo. Non-Ethanol fuel. Oil bath filter. Stock brakes set correctly. Detergent 14W40. 

25" block. No headers. Single carb. Maybe it's the lack of zinc in my oil. Lol. ?

[Bryan]

21 hours ago, Sniper said:

This is the fan I am running.

 

You might want to consider one of these fans.  Might want to see what the center hole diameter is though.

 

Took me a bit.   Derale doesn't list it. Nor Amazon questions yet.   Says 5/8".   2 other sources say same..

 

1930-2010 All Makes All Models Parts | 17317 | 17 Derale Standard Rotation Steel Blade Rigid Race Fan | Classic Industries

Derale 17" Rigid, Steel-Blade Race Fan - Belt Driven - 8,000 RPM Derale Radiator Fans D17317 (etrailer.com)

 

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Bryan
Add sources.

[Rodney_Hamon]

Is taking the thermostat out a “no no” ? I understand theory of water circulation and getting up to operating temp but way back when my dad told me to take out the thermostat for driving in hot weather. He said that was common to do back in the day. But I can’t remember what pressure cap I had though. It worked on those hot Sacramento valley days that were 100 + in the summer back in the ‘70’s.  I also drove that truck up into the Sierra Nevada mtns and up to Eagle Lake up by Susanville a few times.  When it got colder I put cardboard in front of the radiator until I got to decent operating temp on the gauge. Maybe I was just lucky.  I’m curious about your investigation though as I currently have 50/50 mix in my system and a 180 deg thermostat. No pressure radiator cap.  

[DJK]

The P24 engine I acquired recently, came with a 6 blade fan and 2 spacers between the fan and pulley. Back when I raced dirt bikes, water wetter was very popular, but as Keith mentioned, it will not boil, but the engine is still HOT! I never used it, never lost an engine.

[Bryan]

On the fan I just took off of the 48 Dodge sedan in the woods the center hole is 1 1/8" diameter and the blades were 18" end to end.

[Bryan]

12 hours ago, Bryan said:

Took me a bit.   Derale doesn't list it. Nor Amazon questions yet.   Says 5/8".   2 other sources say same..

 

1930-2010 All Makes All Models Parts | 17317 | 17 Derale Standard Rotation Steel Blade Rigid Race Fan | Classic Industries

Derale 17" Rigid, Steel-Blade Race Fan - Belt Driven - 8,000 RPM Derale Radiator Fans D17317 (etrailer.com)

 

 

McMaster Carr has a bushing that would make it work.  Might have to shorten it but hey, it'd be centered.   spacers | McMaster-Carr

[Sniper]

Probably be easier to pull the flange off the water pump shaft, flip it and press it back on. 

[Adam H P15 D30]

Check your old engine fans very carefully.  Here's the one off my 49, made a hell of a racket when it let loose.

[wagoneer]

On 7/30/2022 at 9:35 PM, Sniper said:

This is the fan I am running.

 

You might want to consider one of these fans.  Might want to see what the center hole diameter is though.

 

Found a 6v fan with specs.  It's rated at 1248 cfm, 15.4A draw.  My fan is rated at 1400 cfm on low and it will cool the coolant to the point the thermostat closes at 100+ degrees.  At idle though, I haven;t road tested it yet.

 

Have you any experience or knowledge about the 6v fan from speedway - https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-6-Volt-Electric-Cooling-Fan,56152.html?sku=910151-16 ?

 

Though the one you sent and this one look similar, an interesting note on installation is speedway's doesn't need the blade flipped when using as pusher - apparently blades are curved.

 

Windsor has a ton of dead space in front of the Radiator to push, and I would be glad to be rid of the finger chopper hazard in front. Makes it simple to time, and make adjustments.

[Sniper]

14 minutes ago, wagoneer said:

Have you any experience or knowledge about the 6v fan from speedway - https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-6-Volt-Electric-Cooling-Fan,56152.html?sku=910151-16 ?

 

I did look at that unit, specs as slim.  But it shows it draws 8.5-10 amps, at 6v.  My Derale 17" fan draws 17.4A on low speed, 1800 cfm, 25.3A high speed, 2400 cfm.  The Speedway fan would have to be drawing twice my amps to match the performance.  Motors are rated in watts, the Derale has a 265 watt motor.  Watts is defined as volts times amps, so if you halve the voltage you have to double the amperage to get the same wattage out.  At 10A that 6v motor is at 60w. 

 

If you read the Q&A section one reply claims 1600-1700 cfm and two replies later the same respondent claims 2500 cfm.  I doubt it's 1000.  Speedway neglects to tell us.  Unless you can get Speedway to give you a better answer I'd pass on it.  Might be ok for a helper fan.

[keithb7]

Still a ‘hunnerd Fahrenheit here today. Hard to believe we are competing with southern areas of the USA.  I’m doing what I can.  No electric 6V fans around. Have to order-in.  By the time that arrives it’ll be time to install a hotter thermostat. 
 

Bigger pulley is being utilized! So many little intricate differences over the years. 
 

 FYI the  water pump shaft diameter is 1.1134 ish inches. 
 

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by keithb7

[LazyK]

wont a bigger pulley on the water pump reduce the speed?

[Bryan]

That's 1 1/8 for yous guys up there..??

[Sniper]

7 hours ago, LazyK said:

wont a bigger pulley on the water pump reduce the speed?

 

Yes, but it will slow down both the coolant flow and the fan speed, hitting you with a double whammy.

[keithb7]

Sorry the post was unclear. The larger diameter is what was on my car. I went through my parts stash and found the smaller diameter pulley. I’m trying it. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by keithb7

[wagoneer]

On 8/2/2022 at 12:38 PM, Sniper said:

 

I did look at that unit, specs as slim.  But it shows it draws 8.5-10 amps, at 6v.  My Derale 17" fan draws 17.4A on low speed, 1800 cfm, 25.3A high speed, 2400 cfm.  The Speedway fan would have to be drawing twice my amps to match the performance.  Motors are rated in watts, the Derale has a 265 watt motor.  Watts is defined as volts times amps, so if you halve the voltage you have to double the amperage to get the same wattage out.  At 10A that 6v motor is at 60w. 

 

If you read the Q&A section one reply claims 1600-1700 cfm and two replies later the same respondent claims 2500 cfm.  I doubt it's 1000.  Speedway neglects to tell us.  Unless you can get Speedway to give you a better answer I'd pass on it.  Might be ok for a helper fan.

 

 

@Sniper so what that means is we can’t go only electric fan on our vehicles at 6v. Electric fan plus a nice fan on the water pump should keep things moving enough. Who knows what the cfm of our fans are really but it’s directly proportional to the rp

s , therefor something like max 3200*volume in a single revolution which is <<1.
 

Even at low power pushing 1200 cfm, the electric fans will probably double airflow and help @keithb7 out when he’s climbing up that hill (making a deal with God).

 

 

[Sniper]

Possibly, in the thread where I details the swap on my Cambridge I had some airflow measurements I took, before and after.  I will see if I can find it.

 

https://p15-d24.com/topic/58015-electric-fan-conversion/?do=findComment&comment=624796

Edited August 13, 2022 by Sniper

[keithb7]

So far my limited trials have produced no improved results. The smaller diameter pulley runs a wider groove pulley. If I got to a wider belt, then the crank pulley also needs to come off and be changed out. I found a spare wider groove crank pulley in my parts stash. Yet the seal surface is worn pretty good. A speedi-sleeve would be required. I put the 7", narrower v pulley back on.

 

I will likely order the 6V Maradyne fan as posted by @Sniper. Put it on the front of the rad. Likely a manual switch so I have control of it. A relay will be utilized. I doubt I'll run the current through the ammeter though.  Sounds like an upcoming winter project for me.  Pending electrical system test results  6V alternator might be in the radar. It will amount to a fair amount time and money. Just I can deal the brief 100F weather each July and Aug.?

[Bryan]

28 minutes ago, keithb7 said:

So far my limited trials have produced no improved results. The smaller diameter pulley runs a wider groove pulley. If I got to a wider belt, then the crank pulley also needs to come off and be changed out. I found a spare wider groove crank pulley in my parts stash. Yet the seal surface is worn pretty good. A speedi-sleeve would be required. I put the 7", narrower v pulley back on.

 

I will likely order the 6V Maradyne fan as posted by @Sniper. Put it on the front of the rad. Likely a manual switch so I have control of it. A relay will be utilized. I doubt I'll run the current through the ammeter though.  Sounds like an upcoming winter project for me.  Pending electrical system test results  6V alternator might be in the radar. It will amount to a fair amount time and money. Just I can deal the brief 100F weather each July and Aug.?

I would start with simpler, cheaper solutions first instead of changing the crank pulley and adding an electric fan.  Maybe the multi-blade fan James D suggested or a different anti-freeze type.  Try a shroud first?

[Bryan]

Is this the same car in your main post where you said you took the thermostat out and it runs 160-180F at night?

[keithb7]

2 hours ago, Bryan said:

Is this the same car in your main post where you said you took the thermostat out and it runs 160-180F at night?

No. My Stock Chrylser runs cool. My Plymouth here is what it getting too warm.  Sorry about the confusion. 

[9 foot box]

   It’s possible that when the car was in storage, before you bought it, mice had moved into your muffler. You tried everything else.

[Adam H P15 D30]

Just curious, what is your timing set at?  Late timing causes heat too...

I fought this on a 421 Pontiac a few years ago and it ended up being low flow from the waterpump.  A better waterpump solved the issue.