billrigsby Posted December 31, 2021 Report Posted December 31, 2021 (edited) When I assembled the engine I had the timing gears set Early November questioned the distributor being off, not at 7 o'clock Indexed the oil pump and all seemed OK ( https://p15-d24.com/topic/56780-distributor-install-question/ ) (no photo) Now I go to do the static timing and at TDC find the distributor is once again off, seems to be between two wire contacts Guess I need to go back to the beginning and start by checking the timing chain, then remove the oil pump again not sure what is going on, frustrating - one step forward and two back again thoughts? Going away for the weekend, be a nice break, but this will be waiting! Happy New Year all Edited December 31, 2021 by billrigsby Quote
Brent B3B Posted December 31, 2021 Report Posted December 31, 2021 Must be an illusion, that second to last photo looks like it’s pointed at 4 o’clock not at 7 to me Quote
Merle Coggins Posted December 31, 2021 Report Posted December 31, 2021 Being at 7 o’clock isn’t all that important, but if you want it to be you’ll have to re-index your oil pump again. However, having the rotor pointing between the wire towers has more to do with the distributor timing position. You can loosen the adjustment and rotate the distributor to line it up. However, that would be done as part of a static timing procedure with a test light and a power source. Quote
Brent B3B Posted December 31, 2021 Report Posted December 31, 2021 28 minutes ago, Merle Coggins said: Being at 7 o’clock isn’t all that important, but if you want it to be you’ll have to re-index your oil pump again. True, by his reference to his other thread, i figured he was trying to fire on #1 not #6. (Of course I don’t know if his dist. wires aren’t adjusted on the cap to fire at #1 ?) Quote
billrigsby Posted January 1, 2022 Author Report Posted January 1, 2022 Yes I do want it to fire on number one and, yes I'm pretty sure I'm not going crazy and I did re-index the oil pump. I guess I'll have to just double check the oil pump at this point, having known that I did it, I think I was just overly freaking out at something terribly disastrous had happened. Thanks for the replies and comments, hopefully it's just old age setting in, since I have no pictures. There will be pictures this time. Quote
Merle Coggins Posted January 1, 2022 Report Posted January 1, 2022 I wouldn’t worry about the oil pump position as long as you’re happy with the position of the rotor with #1 in firing position. I’ve heard the “7 O’clock position” mentioned many times, but it is nowhere to be found in the Pilot House shop manuals. I thought I had read somewhere about how to position the oil pump slot when installing the pump, but I can’t find that now. Here is a clip from the shop manual. Quote
billrigsby Posted January 7, 2022 Author Report Posted January 7, 2022 (edited) Well, decided to leave the oil pump as is and rearrange the wires, can fix it later if need be.. Set static timing, cranked over the engine and nada. Pulled the cap and no rotation..... 20220107_131901.mp4 Pulled the distributor and looking down at the oil pump, also no rotation..... 20220107_132505.mp4 I know it WAS working, after installing an oil pressure gauge, I bleed the line of air, til oil came out. I recall someone else had an issue with a new Melling oil pump, searched but could not find it. Might have been @Brent B3B , not sure. Guess I am pulling the pump, hoping it all comes out in one piece and there is no further engine surgery required, back to frustration. Edited January 7, 2022 by billrigsby Quote
billrigsby Posted January 7, 2022 Author Report Posted January 7, 2022 YEP It's $^&(*&% seized and worthless, lets hope the camshaft is better made, son of a ________ Moving this to my Build Thread FRUSTRATION Quote
billrigsby Posted January 8, 2022 Author Report Posted January 8, 2022 3 hours ago, wallytoo said: that sucks. YES Quote
Young Ed Posted January 8, 2022 Report Posted January 8, 2022 You are right there were some other people who had defective oil pumps too. Not sure who though Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted January 8, 2022 Report Posted January 8, 2022 on a new oil pump install a member local to me had the same problem, ran a minute, stopped, no fire and called me...he had not discovered the broken gear as he knew it was a new pump and could not be the problem....I discovered this right off, (always check rotation) got a new pump...primed the unit and installed, indexed correctly for the distributor corrected the cap wiring and let the big dog eat...Sadly this does happen.....I am not sure if it was lack of initial lube or what else could have attributed to the instant fail on start up. He had to return the pump AS IS for warranty so an investigation was out of the question. Quote
kencombs Posted January 8, 2022 Report Posted January 8, 2022 My suspicion is they made that gear using sintered metal, not cast iron. Faulty material or pressing process. this seems to be really common across lots of product lines (see recent discussion on PEX fittings). I have a little JD diesel garden tractor with sintered metal spider gears in the transaxle. I should have said 'that had', as they failed and it now has the real machined replacements. If my guess is correct, install and startup procedures won't matter as it is just a good or bad gear. The only other thing that could contribute to the breakage in my mind is the oil pressure relief valve. Stuck or sticky could cause a pressure spike that would cause a marginal gear to fail. Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted January 8, 2022 Report Posted January 8, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, kencombs said: My suspicion is they made that gear using sintered metal, not cast iron. Faulty material or pressing process. this seems to be really common across lots of product lines (see recent discussion on PEX fittings). I have a little JD diesel garden tractor with sintered metal spider gears in the transaxle. I should have said 'that had', as they failed and it now has the real machined replacements. If my guess is correct, install and startup procedures won't matter as it is just a good or bad gear. The only other thing that could contribute to the breakage in my mind is the oil pressure relief valve. Stuck or sticky could cause a pressure spike that would cause a marginal gear to fail. Might I add to my above, important note.....the pump was seized in the one I was involved with....not sure of the above OP experience. I would have taken it apart to ascertain if something got caught between the vanes of the pump or seized shaft to housing but warranty required return as is....but as for just a bad gear....not in this case, other contributing factors... to me, the very design by which the engine will stop and no longer run by fact of the sacrificial gear is a good thing... Edited January 8, 2022 by Plymouthy Adams 1 Quote
Bryan Posted January 8, 2022 Report Posted January 8, 2022 Well, mine just arrived from Amazon, need to go up the road to pick it up. Wonder how hard it is to change gears? If the original wasn't worn too much...hmm. Done got antsy over this.. Quote
billrigsby Posted January 8, 2022 Author Report Posted January 8, 2022 32 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said: I would have taken it apart to ascertain if something got caught between the vanes of the pump or seized shaft to housing but warranty required return as is....but as for just a bad gear....not in this case, other contributing factors. Teardown and Inspection Quote
billrigsby Posted January 8, 2022 Author Report Posted January 8, 2022 7 minutes ago, Bryan said: Well, mine just arrived from Amazon, need to go up the road to pick it up. Wonder how hard it is to change gears? If the original wasn't worn too much...hmm. Done got antsy over this.. This is the other post I found about the same kind of failure, this was back in 2020 Oil Pump Failure I don't know what to tell you, I guarantee you there are hundreds if not thousands of these out there working just fine. But there are a fair number of posts on Facebook groups and at least one here, so it is a problem. Quote
Flat Jack Posted February 24 Report Posted February 24 Hi guys, thanks for the re-plies. I can't find anything on this sites search feature even with help from other members, I just do a google search then find results from P15-d24. I searched Dodge 218 timing chain because my book gives the oddest method to start the timing chain process. I thought No. 1 TDC on compression stroke must be wrong. No, they just have a odd way of getting you there. I was actually trying to find a photo of the front plate to see if the flat head screw went into the oil galley or the water jacket since I put no sealer on it. Anyway in the sub headings under that search there was Dodge 218 timing frustration I clicked on. Then so on and so on and came to this oil pump deal. To the member who couldn't find the other pump failure click the link someone gave in my responses says oil pump failure back in 2020. That one is Bdblazer1978's oil pump issue. Anyway as I stated in my comment I'm not ruling out gear wear. Rule of thumb is never run a new gear against a worn one unless absolutely necessary. Took my cam to Tacoma Camshaft and I never paid any attention to the condition of the pump drive gear. Don't know if they can be built up then redone or not. Here are a couple photos. I will defiantly be using either the old pump or my old drive gear. By the way this 1948 B1B has 70,000 miles and was completely worn out. .040 taper in the cylinders. I will also be running the lowest oil pressure acceptable. Flat Jack Quote
Jerry B Posted February 24 Report Posted February 24 Oil pump must be complete submerged in oil before installing, the whole pump, not just primeing Quote
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