Lug nut torque on 2 ton truck

[Dunkin]

Howdy,

 

I recently rebuilt the front wheel cylinder on my 1947 2 ton Dodge, but I can't seem to find the appropriate torque in the manual for the lug nuts.  Any ideas what it might be?

 

Regards,

Roman

[Dodgeb4ya]

450-500 lbs. .....1-1/2" lug nuts...

3/4" X 16 tpi   hub/drum studs.

[Dunkin]

14 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

450-500 lbs. .....1-1/2" lug nuts...

3/4" X 16 tpi   hub/drum studs.

Yikes!!!  Really?  Thanks, I would've never had guessed that it was that high.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Yes that is a typical torque for that size lug nut and stud.

That # is off a 1959 Dodge D 600 2 ton front wheel.....same size studs and nuts as yours...

Be sure they are tight!

[Plymouthy Adams]

ah, you can do it with a pinky ring in your nose a piece of thread....I'll let you do the math on the length of that lever...!

[Dunkin]

For now, I torqued it down to 250lbs. since that is as high as my torque wrench goes and then I'll have my local truck tire shop tighten them down to 450.  Thanks!

[Matt Wilson]

Here's a photo taken from my 1948 - 49 B-1 series shop manual.  It lists the "rear axle shaft nut" as requiring a minimum of 142 ft-lbs of torque.  It gives no maximum.  I'm certain they are talking about the lug nuts because they list the size as 3/4", which is the size of wheel stud on my Power Wagon.  Nut size (which I just now measured to confirm) is 1-1/2".  This same torque spec seems to cover several models.  I'm sure one of them is the 2-ton truck, and I don't think it matters that this is for 1949 - 49, while yours is a '47 model.  The torque values will almost certainly be the same.

 

Last time I tightened them, I think I went to 225 ft-lbs and used anti-seize.

[Young Ed]

8 minutes ago, Matt Wilson said:

Here's a photo taken from my 1948 - 49 B-1 series shop manual.  It lists the "rear axle shaft nut" as requiring a minimum of 142 ft-lbs of torque.  It gives no maximum.  I'm certain they are talking about the lug nuts because they list the size as 3/4", which is the size of wheel stud on my Power Wagon.  Nut size (which I just now measured to confirm) is 1-1/2".  This same torque spec seems to cover several models.  I'm sure one of them is the 2-ton truck, and I don't think it matters that this is for 1949 - 49, while yours is a '47 model.  The torque values will almost certainly be the same.

 

Last time I tightened them, I think I went to 225 ft-lbs and used anti-seize.

That's the axle nut that holds the drum on for 1/2 tons and cars. Not the wheel studs 

[Dodgeb4ya]

Here are more pics of early 60's Dodge shop manuals lug nut torque specs and lug nut specs out of my Firestone Wheel tech book....

They all come up with the same torque spec on the radius ball seat style nut/wheels like used on all old Dodge medium duty truck wheels.

The torque is much higher than the 3/4" X 16 axle shaft nut. That nut tightens up against a nice smooth washer.

The 1-1/2" lug nuts tighten against a 1/4"  wide radius bevel. This nut bevel is located at the outer edge of that 1-1/2" lug nut hex.

Requiring a much higher torque value. Kinda a DOT standard .....especially for a 15-18,000lb truck.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Dodgeb4ya
More info added

[Matt Wilson]

29 minutes ago, Young Ed said:

That's the axle nut that holds the drum on for 1/2 tons and cars. Not the wheel studs 

I think it may be a misprint, calling it the axle shaft nut.  The manual covers lighter trucks and heavier trucks (and no cars).  The lighter trucks have the nut you speak of, bwcause they have semi-floating axles, but the heavier trucks, including the Power Wagon, don't have that nut because they have full-floating axles.  Most of the trucks on the list are the heavier trucks.  I'm pretty certain this spec is for the lug nut.  It's even the correct size.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Matt Wilson

[Brent B3B]

owners manual (page 50) for the B1F and B1H

http://dodgepilothouseclub.org/know/Drivers_B1F/imgcol/index.htm

 

calls for 375-425lbs for rear

I would feel comfortable 450lbs for my HH

 

(And yeah, I know the post was about the “front specs” but hey, same stud, same nut?)

 

 

[Dodgeb4ya]

I think on most of these hardly driven lightly loaded trucks 400 ft lbs+ would be just fine?

[wallytoo]

6 hours ago, Matt Wilson said:

I think it may be a misprint, calling it the axle shaft nut.  The manual covers lighter trucks and heavier trucks (and no cars).  The lighter trucks have the nut you speak of, bwcause they have semi-floating axles, but the heavier trucks, including the Power Wagon, don't have that nut because they have full-floating axles.  Most of the trucks on the list are the heavier trucks.  I'm pretty certain this spec is for the lug nut.  It's even the correct size.

 

it’s a misprint because you believe it refers to the lug nuts?  even with compelling information provided by bob as to the torque range these would require?

 

fwiw, my B-1-F owners manual calls for lug nut torque of 375 to 425.  i don’t believe the shop manual is a misprint; it isn’t referencing lug nuts.

 

edit: and now i see that brent provided the same info from the online copy.

Edited December 9, 2021 by wallytoo

[Dunkin]

16 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Here are more pics of early 60's Dodge shop manuals lug nut torque specs and lug nut specs out of my Firestone Wheel tech book....

They all come up with the same torque spec on the radius ball seat style nut/wheels like used on all old Dodge medium duty truck wheels.

The torque is much higher than the 3/4" X 16 axle shaft nut. That nut tightens up against a nice smooth washer.

The 1-1/2" lug nuts tighten against a 1/4"  wide radius bevel. This nut bevel is located at the outer edge of that 1-1/2" lug nut hex.

Requiring a much higher torque value. Kinda a DOT standard .....especially for a 15-18,000lb truck.

Thanks for sharing this information dodgeb4ya.  The front studs are 3/4", so 450 ft. lbs. it is.  I would assume a short drive to the tire shop at 250 lbs. will not be a problem.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Dunkin

[bkahler]

1 hour ago, Dunkin said:

Thanks for sharing this information dodgeb4ya.  The front studs are 3/4", so 450 ft. lbs. it is.  I would assume a short drive to the tire shop at 250 lbs. will not be a problem.

 

No burnouts or wheelies allowed during the trip......

 

[Dodgeb4ya]

I do mine at 450....but mine is a 4 ton 10 lugger.

Brent and wallytoo stated out of their owners booklet 375-425 lbs.

Pick your number any will be fine I think.

[Matt Wilson]

17 hours ago, wallytoo said:

 

it’s a misprint because you believe it refers to the lug nuts?  even with compelling information provided by bob as to the torque range these would require?

 

fwiw, my B-1-F owners manual calls for lug nut torque of 375 to 425.  i don’t believe the shop manual is a misprint; it isn’t referencing lug nuts.

 

edit: and now i see that brent provided the same info from the online copy.

No, not because I just choose to "believe" it's a misprint.  As I said before, the axle shaft nut that you describe is only used on lighter truck models - i.e., 1/2 and 3/4-ton models - and passenger cars (which are not covered in my manual).  So it struck me as odd that eight models would list a spec like that, when only two of them actually use such a configuration.  Additionally, that nut description just happens to be the same size and thread pitch as the lug nuts on my Power Wagon.  On the other hand, the only axle shaft nuts on my Power Wagon are 3/8" (six of them) that hold the axle shaft flange to the hub, and they obviously would not stand up to 142 ft-lbs of torque.  Other heavy models, 1-ton and up, have similarly small axle shaft nuts.

 

I've assumed for a great many years, probably incorrectly, that this spec was referring to the lug nuts. 

 

I should note that a poster on the Power Wagon forum has said that the Dodge M37 manual (M37 uses the same 3/4 - 16 TPI and 1-1/5" wrench size lug nuts), calls for 200 - 225 ft-lbs of torque.  Manuals are not always consistent.

 

One last note is that it's worth considering whether to tighten the nuts to something less than 450 ft-lbs, in case one finds oneself some distance from help or power tools and having a flat tire, as it will be difficult to use hand tools to loosen nuts tightened so snugly.

 

Sorry if proposing a possible misprint has stepped on someone's toes.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Matt Wilson

[Dodgeb4ya]

When I always drove my 2-1/2 ton Dodge I always carried a bottle jack, the dedicated two piece lug nut socket wrench, and 5' pipe plus a couple wood blocks.

I never had or used a torque wrench of that size. I couldn't afford or need one either.

I always mounted and de-mounted all my 20" tires...for me it was fun!

The 5' pipe on the tire tool bar always broke them loose and got them plenty tight too.

Does outer hex and inner square.

Now days I use a 1" impact gun to loosen.?

A pic showing the typical on the r road back in the day real man tools...ha ha

You had to use some kind of support for the lug wrench tool otherwise you couldn't lay into it without the set up falling to the ground and you too.

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Dodgeb4ya

[Brent B3B]

2 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

When I always drove my 2-1/2 ton Dodge I always carried a bottle jack, the dedicated two piece lug nut socket wrench, and 5' pipe plus a couple wood blocks.

I never had or used a torque wrench of that size. I couldn't afford or need one either.

I always mounted and de-mounted all my 20" tires...for me it was fun!

The 5' pipe on the tire tool bar always broke them loose and got them plenty tight too.

Now days I use a 1" impact gun to loosen.?

 

Lol, yeah buddy!?

[Dodgeb4ya]

Brent...I'd probably break all my front teeth out spinning the nuts off with that big bad boy!?  

[Merle Coggins]

I have a 3/4” drive torque wrench that goes up to 600 ft. lbs. I used to use it a lot when I was a full time heavy equipment mechanic. I haven’t used it is years. 

 

This is how I imagine Dodgeb4ya changing his tires… ?

 

[wallytoo]

8 hours ago, Matt Wilson said:

No, not because I just choose to "believe" it's a misprint.  As I said before, the axle shaft nut that you describe is only used on lighter truck models - i.e., 1/2 and 3/4-ton models - and passenger cars (which are not covered in my manual).  So it struck me as odd that eight models would list a spec like that, when only two of them actually use such a configuration.  Additionally, that nut description just happens to be the same size and thread pitch as the lug nuts on my Power Wagon.  On the other hand, the only axle shaft nuts on my Power Wagon are 3/8" (six of them) that hold the axle shaft flange to the hub, and they obviously would not stand up to 142 ft-lbs of torque.  Other heavy models, 1-ton and up, have similarly small axle shaft nuts.

 

I've assumed for a great many years, probably incorrectly, that this spec was referring to the lug nuts. 

 

I should note that a poster on the Power Wagon forum has said that the Dodge M37 manual (M37 uses the same 3/4 - 16 TPI and 1-1/5" wrench size lug nuts), calls for 200 - 225 ft-lbs of torque.  Manuals are not always consistent.

 

One last note is that it's worth considering whether to tighten the nuts to something less than 450 ft-lbs, in case one finds oneself some distance from help or power tools and having a flat tire, as it will be difficult to use hand tools to loosen nuts tightened so snugly.

 

Sorry if proposing a possible misprint has stepped on someone's toes.

 

the service manual is poorly written as far as procedures go; it assumes the reader understands far more than is likely, especially 70 years later.  there are many steps that are either left out from the description, or given scant detail.  same goes for the specifications that are listed; too random, and many are left out, including for differences between the models of the series.

 

in my opinion, the manual is merely a reference; other sources must be used to augment and complete some of the tasks needed to work on these trucks.  additionally, automotive engineering has evolved over 70 years; things change.  you criticized my use of non-stepped wheel cylinders because that wasn’t how the engineers designed the truck; however, i’ve put thousands of miles on my 14000 pound gvw truck, hauling multi-ton loads over the last 15 years.  the brakes have worked excellent for the duration.  real world experience sometimes carries more weight than 70 year old obsolete engineering ideas, including left-hand thread lug nuts.

[Matt Wilson]

7 hours ago, wallytoo said:

you criticized my use of non-stepped wheel cylinders because that wasn’t how the engineers designed the truck.

Well, I'm sorry if it came across as a criticism.  That was not my intent; it was not intended as a slam.  I was only pointing out that in something so critical as brakes, I'd be hesitant to change that particular feature, as I figure the engineers probably had good reason for it.  Also, it's indisputable that having a larger rear bore will produce more braking force at that shoe than having the same bore size as the front shoe, even if it's not perceptible to the driver.  If it has worked well for you, then that's great; more power to you.

 

And yes, I agree that some of these manuals are poorly written.  Like you, I also tend to augment my understanding with multiple manuals, for that reason.  Some are written much better than the original shop manual, but it seems that none are complete or as well-written as they could be.  I've also seen a few specs that changed over the years, across the various factory manuals, so I like to corroborate the info sometimes using two, three or occasionally even four manuals.  I sometimes end up referring to other automotive repair books, or even automotive course textbooks to gain further understanding, when my multiple Dodge, Chrysler or Army manuals don't do the trick.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Matt Wilson

[47 dodge 1.5 ton]

7 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

I have a 3/4” drive torque wrench that goes up to 600 ft. lbs. I used to use it a lot when I was a full time heavy equipment mechanic. I haven’t used it is years. 

 

This is how I imagine Dodgeb4ya changing his tires… ?

 

One item that I think worth mentioning on torque wrenches. I work in the large industrial pump industry and we use 1/2”,3/4”and 1” mechanical torque wrenches, over that are hydraulic. After working in quality the last several years and being involved with calibration, mechanical torque wrenches have a higher “failed” ratio out of almost 5000 tools that are calibrated in our system. Some go bad from just sitting in tool boxes due to poor storage. These are checked at 5 points of the range have an acceptable point tolerance of +\- 4% on a (6) month frequency.
 

 I just thought this is worth mentioning because I have seen some out 30% at a given point. Make sure they are stored per “manufacture”instructions. Common reasons for failure; being torqued past the “click” setting, used for backing off bolts, dropped, not backing off pressure when stored, moisture in storage.

 

I also wanted to point out while on the subject that we have conducted several R&R’s using statistic analysis on torque bars, dewalt impacts and such. The mechanical torque wrench is the most accurate tool if in calibration for general use. Best regards, Kevin

Edited December 10, 2021 by 47 dodge 1.5 ton

[Dodgeb4ya]

6 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

I have a 3/4” drive torque wrench that goes up to 600 ft. lbs. I used to use it a lot when I was a full time heavy equipment mechanic. I haven’t used it is years. 

 

This is how I imagine Dodgeb4ya changing his tires… ?

 

Where in the world did you find that old picture of me Merle??

That was uncle Lyle's KB7 Cornbinder!