Spindle nut conversion

[Sniper]

I mentioned in my disc brake swap that I had already converted my spindle nuts to a more modern setup.  The stock castle nut preload method is a little too loosey goosey for my liking and not good at all on a disc brake swap because any wobble in the rotor will force the pads away from the rotor and cause a delay in brake application.  

 

I used Dorman 04991, which is a 3/4-16 nut, .34" thick.  Ford truck applications.

Dorman 04990 will work as well, it is slightly thicker at .37". multiple Mopar applications.   

 

It consists of a washer with an internal tang that engages the slot in the spindle, a thinner nut and a shee tmetal retainer with castellations that are a bit offset as pairs so that you can move the retainer to align with the cotter pin hole without changing the preload on the bearing.  The stock castellated nut will lose preload if the slots do not align at the specified preset.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Sniper
part number corrections

[Sniper]

Stock castellated nut.  Once preload is set, if the slot doesn't align with the hole you have to back off to the next slot.  This can will lessen preload and can introduce a bit of wobble especially if you are running a disc brake setup.

[Sniper]

Stock nut and washer setup in the top row and newer style setup int eh bottom row.  just to show what's different.

[Sniper]

New washer fits like the old one.

[Sniper]

New nut is thinner, but is about as thick as the unslotted portion of the stock nut. 

[Sniper]

Here we have the preload set using the FSM specifications.  The cotter pin will not go thru the spindle to lock the nut in place.  I marked the slot with a sharpie.

[Sniper]

Here we have the retainer rotated to align with the spindle hole without having to back off the nut.  You can see where I marked the retainer.  If I had to back the nut off to align the cotter pin there would have been some free play.

 

FSM calls for zero to .003" end play using the stock nut, this method ensures zero end play all the time. 

[Sniper]

All done, cotter pin installed using the Rolls Royce method.

 

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/hrdp-9808-cotter-pin-tips/

[Loren]

"Spindle Nut"?

I was surprised you didn't called a "Knuckle Nut" after all it threads on to the "Knuckle." 

Previously you had pointed out that I erred by referring to a "Spindle" instead of its official parts book/service manual name, "Knuckle."

Plymouths of this vintage don't have "Spindles" they have "Knuckles" which upon reading the parts book I found to be true.

Still a little sensitive about that correction, I reviewed the parts book for the official name of this item.

The parts book calls it a "Nut" P/N 33-208, thereby dodging the Knuckle vs Spindle confusion (the stinkers).

I suppose you can call it anything you want, if it enables clarity of what you are talking about and so "Spindle Nut" works for me.

[TodFitch]

5 minutes ago, Loren said:

"Spindle Nut"?

I was surprised you didn't called a "Knuckle Nut" after all it threads on to the "Knuckle." 

Previously you had pointed out that I erred by referring to a "Spindle" instead of its official parts book/service manual name, "Knuckle."

Plymouths of this vintage don't have "Spindles" they have "Knuckles" which upon reading the parts book I found to be true.

Still a little sensitive about that correction, I reviewed the parts book for the official name of this item.

The parts book calls it a "Nut" P/N 33-208, thereby dodging the Knuckle vs Spindle confusion (the stinkers).

I suppose you can call it anything you want, if it enables clarity of what you are talking about and so "Spindle Nut" works for me.

Oh boy, people being pedantic! May I join in?

 

Your ”P/N 33-208” with the dash looks a lot more like a “Part Type Code” than a part number. The part number would actually be 33208 and was used, near as I can tell with my incomplete collection of parts books, from 1933 through at least 1948. Given how low the part number is I suspect that it was used on some other non-Plymouth several years earlier perhaps even in the 1920s.

 

For what it is worth, the 1936-48 book has the part type code as 22-06-2 and calls it a “Front Wheel Bearing NUT”.

[Sniper]

Ah

17 minutes ago, Loren said:

"Spindle Nut"?

I was surprised you didn't called a "Knuckle Nut" after all it threads on to the "Knuckle." 

Previously you had pointed out that I erred by referring to a "Spindle" instead of its official parts book/service manual name, "Knuckle."

Plymouths of this vintage don't have "Spindles" they have "Knuckles" which upon reading the parts book I found to be true.

Still a little sensitive about that correction, I reviewed the parts book for the official name of this item.

The parts book calls it a "Nut" P/N 33-208, thereby dodging the Knuckle vs Spindle confusion (the stinkers).

I suppose you can call it anything you want, if it enables clarity of what you are talking about and so "Spindle Nut" works for me.

 

Didn't mean to upset you, it can be confusing when everyone has their own name for something which I guess was where I was going with that.  However, look at the packaging for the kit I used.  In this case it is called a spindle nut.  Whereas the original nut is called a nut in my parts books as well, even though that specific design is called a slotted nut elsewhere.  Terminology can be as bad as karma. 

 

 

[Art Bailey]

Thanks for this info, Sniper. It crossed my mind as I was reading about reassembly after repacking the wheel bearings that, geez, you're introducing some play by backing off the castle nut to the next available slot. People in the 40s lived life on the edge with their 3 packs a day, booze and bacon with every meal and loose front ends!

[squirebill]

Sniper, great idea and write up.  Be advised of typo in original post is " Dorman 04491"  whereas picture of package shows "Dorman 04991".  Please advise any benefit of Rolls Royce cotter pin install vs. SAE or NASA cotter pin install.

[Sniper]

8 hours ago, squirebill said:

Be advised of typo in original post is " Dorman 04491"

Thanks for noticing.  I'll fix that

[DJK]

Great info Sniper, thanks again.

[Kilgore47]

Yes - good write up Sniper.  I'll look for a couple of those kits.  I always thought you were supposed to back the nut off for expansion.  So that the bearing wouldn't be in a bind when it got hot.  But I'm not a trained mechanic.  I just do many things the way grand dad and dad did them.  These old cars are very forgiving when it comes to some tolerances.  

[Sniper]

I am going to admit to spitballing here, but my thinking is that a tapered roller bearing, then heated up, expands radially more than it does across it's thickness.  As it expands radially the tapered race gets larger in diameter thereby increasing the clearances.  It's a known fact that holes get larger in diameter when they heat up.  Boggled my mind when I first learned that because I thought the hole would tend to close up not expand.

 

I dug into my 73 Dodge FSM to see what the wheel bearing adjustment procedure was, it is a bit different.  This is essentially the new discs I am using.

 

Adjustment
(1) Tighten adjusting nut to 240-300 inch-pounds while rotating wheel. Stop rotation and back off the adjusting nut with wrench, to completely release bearing preload. Next, finger tighten adjusting nut and install lock nut (Fig. 10) with cotter pin. The resulting adjustment should be .0001-.003 inch end play.

(2) Clean grease cap, coat inside with wheel bearing lubricant (DO NOT FILL) and install.
(3) Install wheel covers and lower vehicle to floor.
 

Compared to the 51 procedure

 

Front Wheel Bearings

 

To adjust front wheel bearings, remove hub cap, grease cap and the cotter pin from the bearing adjusting nut.  Rotate wheel and tighten adjusting nut until a slight bind is felt.  Back off adjusting nut to the nearest cotter pin slot and install cotter pin.  Never back off adjusting nut less than 1/2 the distance from one slot to the next slot.  When wheel bearings are properly adjusted, the wheel must rotate freely.
 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Sniper

[Cannuck]

Great info thank you

[James_Douglas]

I just use the stock nut...

 

Then I measure it to get the bearing play...

 

Then I sand down a washer to get the nut to line up cotter spot and or I use a shim between the washer and the nut to make up the end-play.

 

James

[Sniper]

That is another way to do it, a bit more involved though.  But it's less than $5 a side to do the conversion.

[SteveR]

I use to use this on my 65 Barracuda and 74 Dodge Charger. I thought it was a much better set up and more accurate.

[laynrubber]

A very good and descriptive write up with pictures, I do think you may have over thought the original style nut though. Your alteration gives 1 extra slot to adjust the torque on the fastener. Tapered roller bearings can take a fair bit of torque so I am not sure that by backing off the nut to the next cotterpin hole would make things too loose and affect braking.

Still though, nice you did the detective work to get part numbers for the alternate parts. This summer I needed a spindle nut replacement and it was several trips to parts stores to find one. 

[Sniper]

I planned to convert to discs, I setup the spindle nut so I can adjust the preload on the wheel bearings in accordance with the rotor donor vehicle's manual.  The rotor donor is just about any rwd 73-89 Mopar. 

[Loren]

Years ago there was an outfit in SoCal that made an item they called the "Educated Nut".

My Dad got all the car magazines and I remembered the adverts.

Here is a write up from the October, 1952 Hop Up magazine

 

Tire Mileage Increased

Polizzi Precision Products now makes available to the motoring public an amazing tire saver used successfully by fleet operators for years.

The Educated Nut gives you perfect adjustment on front wheel bearings every time. When you back off your present front wheel bearing nuts to insert cotter pin, you loosen your bearing adjustment enough to cause as much as 1/8" wobble on the tread. This causes "scuffing" and "snake tracking," costs you speed, rubber, gas, brake lining and $$$. Easy to install. Send only $2.98 together with your name and address, make and year of car, for a set of 2 Educated Nuts postpaid. Polizzi Precision Products Co., Dept. HU8, 5024 Lankershim Blvd., North Hollywood, California

Ed. Note: These educated nuts were used on the Xydias-Bacthelor SoCal special in 1949 and 1950 when it achieved the speed of 210.896 mph on the Bonneville salt flats.

 

lol  You really don't want the dreaded "Snake Tracking!"

$2.98 was about the price of a good pair of shoes in 1952 so they weren't cheap! And you have to remember those shoes were hand made in the U.S.A. then. My Dad was a machinist at Menasco in Glendale at the time and made about 55 cents an hour.

With drum brakes I suspect there wasn't that much value to these devices (at least not for the price).

With disc brakes I can see a great value. The brake pads live in very close proximity to the rotors and actually touch more than you can imagine. The only thing that retracts the pistons are the squire sectioned O-rings which parallelogram when you step on the brake. The self adjustment is done by them slipping on the piston surface. An accurate adjustment of the wheel bearings means less travel of the pistons fore and aft while in use and less drag (although with discs there is always some drag).

Here's pdf of the Educated Nut.

EducatedNut 1.pdf

[Eneto-55]

14 hours ago, Loren said:

.... (although with discs there is always some drag).

No kidding.  That's something I still haven't figured out on my "modern" cars (currently 2009 & 2010).  The 2009 Journey went around 70,000 miles or more on one set of front brake pads.  Just about every other 'modern' car I've owned has required regular replacement of the front pads.  I never had those kinds of issues with drum brakes.  (Of course I also now live in the "salt belt".)  Maybe the after-market rotors that were already on the 2010 Grand Caravan when I bought it used are warped.  I don't get any pulsing when braking, but hadn't thought about that.

 

[We live in the largest Amish area in the US, and I take an interest in the changes & variations in buggy designs, so take pictures from time to time.  Most of the older (Amish) buggies either had no brakes at all, or just used friction blocks against the wheels.  But most now have hydraulic brakes, and I'm seeing more & more of them with disk brakes.  I recently saw a disk set up that has a return spring incorporated in the design, to back the calipers off of the disk surface.]