Add parking brake to orig rear end

[kencombs]

I don't need a ratio change as my 4.10 with the A833 is almost perfect.  So a complete rear end swap isn't needed.  But I do need a parking brake.  My original plan was to add a disk type brake to the Pinion yoke and I have one to use. Not really sure of its holding capacity though.  Seems like a lot of leverage would need to be designed into the actuating system.   So, it seems like adapting a replacement rear brake system complete from the backing plate out may be better.  I'd have to select parts that fit the original drum diameter and the plate would have to place the shoes in the center of the drum.

 

Maybe a trip to a salvage is in order.  No hurry, as I'm working on fender rust right now and that will be followed by frame clean/pain and installing my 230 and trans. 

 

Anyone attempt this before????

[Los_Control]

 I love you @kencombs you always have great information and do great work.

 

The way I think about this ... YOU CAN DO THIS!

What parts will you need?

You will need a donor rear end for the backing plates & Brake parts.

While grabbing the donor rear end you want to grab the existing E-brake cables & brackets to go with them ... Many just modify the original brake cable to fit on the original E-brake handle.

 

So Now that you have the donor rear end and cables/brackets secured and at home. You want to cut it up and uses the pieces from it to modify your original Tapered axle rear end?

 

I personally can not imagine how many hours would be involved in converting the original tapered axle rear end to a modern brake system.

My personal red line in the sand is bad brake drums. When my drums are no longer usable, I will do a modern rear end swap. Simply just cheaper.

My only point here ... I bet you will spend more time and money converting a original rear end to E-brakes. Then a simple rear end swap.

For these reasons, I never heard of someone doing the E-brake conversion ....  I think it can be done .... would have to ask why be done?

 

[Tooljunkie]

I have to agree,the donor diff will also provide the diff. A couple perches and maybe a driveshaft mod and its ready for cables. I used a diff from mid 70’s pickup. It moved the wheels out considerably, but my non stock wheels work just fine. 

[Tooljunkie]

Back to your disc brake plan, remember,gearing,you need 1/4 the force to lock the wheels compared to a parking brake at the wheel ends. 4:10 gearing, right? 

[Eneto-55]

1 hour ago, Tooljunkie said:

Back to your disc brake plan, remember,gearing,you need 1/4 the force to lock the wheels compared to a parking brake at the wheel ends. 4:10 gearing, right? 

Although I have the stock hand brake drum setup on the transmission tail piece & the stock rear end & no plans to change any of this, I have also sometimes wondered about if it was possible to adapt another type brake mechanism onto the stock rear end.  What I had wondered, however, was weather a brake could be mounted on the front of the differential, between it & the drive shaft.  (My main thought was to do with how, if your trunion joint broke and left the drive shaft disconnected, the hand brake would also loose its effectiveness.)  But I never thought of how the ratio might affect the size of the brake disk or drum necessary to hold the car.)

[kencombs]

2 hours ago, Tooljunkie said:

I have to agree,the donor diff will also provide the diff. A couple perches and maybe a driveshaft mod and its ready for cables. I used a diff from mid 70’s pickup. It moved the wheels out considerably, but my non stock wheels work just fine. 

That is true, but a donor with a 4:1 or so are really rare.  3.5something  or3.2something are common.  But I can't use those with the OD.

[kencombs]

55 minutes ago, Eneto-55 said:

Although I have the stock hand brake drum setup on the transmission tail piece & the stock rear end & no plans to change any of this, I have also sometimes wondered about if it was possible to adapt another type brake mechanism onto the stock rear end.  What I had wondered, however, was weather a brake could be mounted on the front of the differential, between it & the drive shaft.  (My main thought was to do with how, if your trunion joint broke and left the drive shaft disconnected, the hand brake would also loose its effectiveness.)  But I never thought of how the ratio might affect the size of the brake disk or drum necessary to hold the car.)

The pinion mounted disk that I have is just what you described.  bolts to the back if the ujoint yoke and the caliper mounts to the diff housing.  Mine will need custom mounts as it was designed for Ford.

That ratio thing is why Mopar was able to use the little trans mounted brakes for so long.  I suspect the move to 2.xx and 3.xx ratios was one of the reasons it was discontinued.  Well, that and cost.

Edited July 5, 2021 by kencombs

[kencombs]

3 hours ago, Los_Control said:

 .

What parts will you need?

You will need a donor rear end for the backing plates & Brake parts.

While grabbing the donor rear end you want to grab the existing E-brake cables & brackets to go with them ... Many just modify the original brake cable to fit on the original E-brake handle.

 

don't need a donor rear end, just brake parts.  should be easy and under 50 bucks at a pick and pull.  Maybe 100 at the outside.  Even with a rear end swap one needs to mate the in-cab lever and cable to the new cable.   I'd probably us a transfer bar/lever near the trans to attach both.

 

So Now that you have the donor rear end and cables/brackets secured and at home. You want to cut it up and uses the pieces from it to modify your original Tapered axle rear end?

No change needed to the tapered axles or drums, as long as the shoes are the same size and locate the shoes at the correct distance from the drum edge.  Mounting bolt pattern, center register hole size and negative or positive offset from the housing end would be key points.  The first two are easy as I have a relative locally with a machine shop.  The latter could be an issue. 

I personally can not imagine how many hours would be involved in converting the original tapered axle rear end to a modern brake system.

My personal red line in the sand is bad brake drums. When my drums are no longer usable, I will do a modern rear end swap. Simply just cheaper. 65 up drums can be adapted to the tapered hub.  Not sure it works on all, but 63-4 cars can be swapped for sure.

. .... would have to ask why be done?  To create a working ebrake ib on a 4.10 rear end.

 

 

[Tooljunkie]

7 hours ago, Eneto-55 said:

Although I have the stock hand brake drum setup on the transmission tail piece & the stock rear end & no plans to change any of this, I have also sometimes wondered about if it was possible to adapt another type brake mechanism onto the stock rear end.  What I had wondered, however, was weather a brake could be mounted on the front of the differential, between it & the drive shaft.  (My main thought was to do with how, if your trunion joint broke and left the drive shaft disconnected, the hand brake would also loose its effectiveness.)  But I never thought of how the ratio might affect the size of the brake disk or drum necessary to hold the car.)

Perhaps overthinking?

hydraulic brake failure and a trunnion breaking leaving zero effective braking. Odds are its one or the other. 
i just swapped out my flathead for a 360/727 and have yet to get my park brake cables sorted out. 

[Eneto-55]

1 hour ago, Tooljunkie said:

Perhaps overthinking?

hydraulic brake failure and a trunnion breaking leaving zero effective braking. Odds are its one or the other. 
i just swapped out my flathead for a 360/727 and have yet to get my park brake cables sorted out. 

I reckon so (over thinking it).  My first car was a 62 Chrysler, and it had the parking brake on the transmission tail shaft, and no Park in the transmission.  It was the internal drum type (I don't know when they switched to that), so that would require removal of the drive shaft to replace the brake shoes.  Mine didn't work, and I never did the work to fix it.  I just carried a wheel chock, and would open the door and set it out, then slowly let the car go forward or back until the tire came against the wheel chock.  (Mickey Mouse...)

[Lingle]

Cadillac Eldorado rear calipers have a cam-over like park brake integrated into the caliper.  Ive seen some off-roading applications use this caliper as a pinion brake located either on transfer cases or on the pinion.  Make your own brake disc and mounts.  Just another option to consider.  I contemplated using a Eldorado caliper on my rear pinion but was able to make my axle swap work with its parking brakes, however I think they are a good option as you can still make the lever in the cab work and dont need more brake lines.

 

 

[Young Ed]

Way back on the forum someone adapted more modern drums and backing plates if I remember correctly first gen mustang

 

Edit: likely backing plates and hardware with original drums to retain axle mount and lug holes 

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Young Ed

[55 Fargo]

On 7/5/2021 at 5:22 AM, Tooljunkie said:

Perhaps overthinking?

hydraulic brake failure and a trunnion breaking leaving zero effective braking. Odds are its one or the other. 
i just swapped out my flathead for a 360/727 and have yet to get my park brake cables sorted out. 

You and me both TJ, a year since 318 swap, no ebrakes just yet.

 

[chrysler1941]

Get a disc from a motorcycle with caliper and mount on diff as a shaft brake. Hydraulics to master cylinder. 

[wagoneer]

On 7/7/2021 at 10:35 AM, chrysler1941 said:

Get a disc from a motorcycle with caliper and mount on diff as a shaft brake. Hydraulics to master cylinder. 

someone else on this forum did just that, and posted a picture. They used a snowmobile disk brake in place of the tail drum. I recall them saying it was super strong . Seems to me that is a better conversion than going all the way to the wheels.

[chrysler1941]

On 7/8/2021 at 1:35 PM, wagoneer said:

someone else on this forum did just that, and posted a picture. They used a snowmobile disk brake in place of the tail drum. I recall them saying it was super strong . Seems to me that is a better conversion than going all the way to the wheels.

Must have missed it. Agree, disc brake are stronger

[wagoneer]

1 hour ago, chrysler1941 said:

Must have missed it. Agree, disc brake are stronger

 

Google to the rescue.  @1940 Dodge VC  did it on his truck with pictures. 

 

 

 

[kencombs]

Lots of ideas.  Some I can't use because of the A833OD trans.   I do Have disk brake kit Intended for a Ford 9" rear end.  I could use it but will require a mounting bracket to be built.  That's not a real problem, it's just that it is a long way from the only bolts available to the disk location.  If were a Ford with the bolt in pinion retainer it would be easy.  And, after building the bracket (which may look really clumsy when done), it is still a mechanical brake. 

 

Fortunately, I have plenty of time to figure it out.  I'm pulling the front fenders and welding in patches at the moment.  Lots of time will get eaten up by that.  Then clean the frame, paint and install the engine and trans.  Then install the firewall mounted pedals, firewall reinforcement, and hydraulics for brakes and clutch.  And then,  and then.... on an on till the body is ready for paint.

[chrysler1941]

20 hours ago, wagoneer said:

 

Google to the rescue.  @1940 Dodge VC  did it on his truck with pictures. 

 

 

 

On a truck, maybe that's I miss it. Neat setup with OD but I would use a small MC type with fluid type caliper instead of his bulky mechanical. Nowadays there are even small disc brakes on bicycles. 

[Radarsonwheels]

My rear disc brake system lives on an early ramcharger 9.25 rear that was originally drums. 
 

The rotors have little mechanical drum brakes inside them like a tophat. I took the whole brake setup off of a jeep ZJ along with the parking brake lever and cables. It wouldn’t have been to much harder to adapt the cables to a stock C series pull lever. 
 

The ZJ (grand cherokee) setup bolted to a flange on the 9.25 axle tube ends that had the same bolt pattern, I just had to open the circular hole in the center of the caliper bracket with a die grinder. IIRC the calipers are floating so getting them centered wasn’t as critical as a setup with multi piston calipers that are fixed and don’t slide with wear. 
 

Anyway, something like what I did wouldn’t be that hard to adapt and it all works great. 

[chstrumpetdude]

I am in the same boat. Unless I want to swap all of my axles on my 1.5 ton. That becomes almost as expensive as swapping the cab to a new frame. Double clutching in a city of 150k at stop signs gets the heart pumping and am looking into a transmission change. I don't need to go fast and my brakes were completely redone a decade ago by the last owner. 

That snowmobile idea has me thinking. Looks like a lot of people on pirate4x4 do diy driveshaft brakes off of their transfercases (mostly toyotas) One post has extensive photos of him building his own driveline disc brake out of 1/4 plate and the smallest pads NAPA had because he didn't want to buy the kit from sky manufacturing (Currently $170 for the caliper only BTW)