How do I remove this bushing on my starter motor?

[desoto1939]

OK i might have an answer for everyone on this topic. I was reading on starter motor for the Mopar. Motor Auto repair 1935-53 edition.

 

Quote "  form the commutator end: "Where the bearing is replaceable, it should be pressed out into place with the correct arbor, as the arbor determines the inside diameter of the bearing.  If the bearing is not removeable, replace the complete head."

 

So in this case the bearing is not removable then replace the commutator head.

 

Having the repair manuals always comes to the rescue to explain what to do.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[dpollo]

If my advice has resulted in ruining your cover, I will send you a replacement.  PM me.

[Plymouthy Adams]

that has already been covered in this thread...

[Los_Control]

9 hours ago, desoto1939 said:

"Where the bearing is replaceable, it should be pressed out into place with the correct arbor, as the arbor determines the inside diameter of the bearing.  If the bearing is not removeable, replace the complete head."

I wonder why it would not be replaceable?

I suspect it is the washer that is spot welded on? In this time period people did not have a dremel & mig welder to replace, Making it almost impossible to fix.

 

The washer looks out of place, sure it was put there for a reason.

It could be there to hold bushing in place. ... doubtful.

Is it a shim for end play on the shaft?  I wonder what end play tolerance is? Would it change if assemble starter without it as a test?

 

I use the pilot shaft alignment tool to install pilot shaft bushings. Not exactly machinist tolerances but they do fit the bushing ... wonder if they would fit starter bushing?

[Art Bailey]

Hey All,

 

Thanks for all the responses. It's not apparent in the photo, but the spot welded, stamped steel thrust washer isn't retaining the bushing. My guess is that since this was considered a disposable item, as Rich has said, it wasn't made, or mounted, with close tolerances in mind. It was welded on slightly off center, so part of the edge isn't allowing the bushing to be pulled. Looking at both photos I posted, if you were to draw a line from the "U" shaped notch at one corner of the cover, bisecting the bushing, you'll see that the washer covers part of the edge of the bushing in that area, on the side opposite the notch. I was able to pull the bushing up to the point that it touches the edge of the thrust washer. I don't believe the bushing spread during threading. It was already a press fit, if it had spread, it wouldn't have pulled at all, or maybe even cracked the housing it's pressed into. I'll hunt down the NOS cover that Rich mentioned on ebay, but I'd like to take a crack at rebuilding this one, just because. I'll post the results...

Edited June 19, 2021 by ratbailey

[desoto1939]

ratbailey:  Now that you have tapped the bearing I do not think you would want to install the commutator back onto the starter. The shaft then will not pit properly.  Purchase the NOS end that is on Ebay and install it and be done with the repair.  I went out and looked at the starter on my 39 Desoto and as I thought there is an oil cap to lubricate this bushing and felt washer.

 

On your unit I di dnot see an oil cap. Every 6 months you should be putting oil in the oil cap on both the starter and the generator to keep these bushing oiled. This is why they were a permanent non removable item.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

[Art Bailey]

Success. 

All I had to do was slightly enlarge the hole with a dremel grinder. With the tap threaded in the bushing, it was easy to see which side was closer to the edge. It twisted right out with the tap. Rich, unfortunately all I'm seeing on ebay are generator end covers. You make a good point, though, about not being able to oil this. I haven't looked closely yet, but hopefully there's enough material in the cover to hold threads, and I can thread in an oil cup, like what's on the generator. 

[Sniper]

If it is an oilite bushing, and I think it is, then oiling it is contraindicated.  They come impregnated with oil, they are sintered bronze and self lubricating. 

[Art Bailey]

23 minutes ago, Sniper said:

If it is an oilite bushing, and I think it is, then oiling it is contraindicated.  They come impregnated with oil, they are sintered bronze and self lubricating. 

I plan on replacing it with an oilite bushing, but I have to admit I don't know anything other than the most basic info about oilite bushings. Did some quick research...

An Oil Filled/Sintered Bronze Bearing with a 3/4"
     diameter and 1-1/4" in diameter and 1-1/8" long
     was run at 1800 RPM for a total of 1,321,920,000 revolutions
    without exhibiting wear or scoring of the shaft.

Wow. I'd say we're good to go. 

 

-Art

 

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by ratbailey

[Plymouthy Adams]

sinistered bronze (oilite) again industry worldwide...say thanks to WPC and his engineers...

[Plymouthy Adams]

as I stated early on in this thread...the repair is possible...enlarging the hole to smallest diameter to remove the old one was the method....the tack welded washer need not be removed....now just do not forget to soak the new oilite bush in oil prior to install and this.  I also believe you were sent a PM by another member to use the tap method to extract....

 

special tools are nice.....book procedure make things nice...but in the absence of both....common sense and a tad of human intervention will prevail....

[Art Bailey]

11 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

as I stated early on in this thread...the repair is possible...enlarging the hole to smallest diameter to remove the old one was the method....the tack welded washer need not be removed....now just do not forget to soak the new oilite bush in oil prior to install and this.  I also believe you were sent a PM by another member to use the tap method to extract....

 

special tools are nice.....book procedure make things nice...but in the absence of both....common sense and a tad of human intervention will prevail....

Thanks for saving me from myself by convincing me not to rip out the welded thrust washer. Wrenching is fun, unnecessary wrenching to fix self-created problems, not so much.

[Sniper]

4 minutes ago, ratbailey said:

Thanks for saving me from myself by convincing me not to rip out the welded thrust washer. Wrenching is fun, unnecessary wrenching to fix self-created problems, not so much.

I can state for myself, this is very true.  Learned it the hard way.  Sounds like PA did too.

[Plymouthy Adams]

I have learned a few hard lessons....many of us have and I am sure in my future there lurks a few more....I also have learned to sit back a minute and study the problem before wading in all karate chops and guns a-blazing....rat did the work....I (and others) just coached from the keyboard a bit...while other advice on NOS was valid...the basic premise it was not repairable and impossible without the special factory tool is just not true and falls way short of things this hobby will require at times.

[Plymouthy Adams]

lot of folks damage a bush trying to insert it at home....it is great if you have a bench mounted arbor press and other specialty jigs and such.  One easy to make insertion tool if from your tool box on the average most will allow this and can be in 1/4, 3/8 and up if you have these size sets and a need for larger bushes to be placed.  

 

these three items are simple and basic shop stuff....

 

 

 

and this is it when assembled.........minor little shop trick that could be of help some day......

 

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Plymouthy Adams

[Art Bailey]

3 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

lot of folks damage a bush trying to insert it at home....it is great if you have a bench mounted arbor press and other specialty jigs and such.  One easy to make insertion tool if from your tool box on the average most will allow this and can be in 1/4, 3/8 and up if you have these size sets and a need for larger bushes to be placed.  

 

these three items are simple and basic shop stuff....

 

 

 

and this is it when assembled.........minor little shop trick that could be of help some day......

 

 

Cool. I would've been looking in vain for the socket that fits the outside edge of the bushing exactly. No hammering, though, right?

[Plymouthy Adams]

now for your situation....this type rig should well get it started easier....but the tacked washer in your case will prevent running home with this rig...the socket would then be used and a deep well would work good here with a washer the diameter of the bush to allow full set of the bush....careful with oilite if it cocks to the side....your chances of it cracking/chipping is likely if our jig aligning socket does fit the ID of the bush...tapping often will not cause harm...just do not slam it home...listen for the change in tone of the hammer tap...you will know by the sound change it is now bottomed out.  

[Veemoney]

If you warm up that area on the cover a bit and chill the bushing it should make the insertion go a bit easier and reduce the amount of tapping force required.

 

 

 

 

[chrysler1941]

This thread has turned out to be pure entertainment. Thank you all

[Plymouthy Adams]

I think it was as much educational as it was entertaining.  There are means to an end if one just believes in their capabilities and follow a few sound practices.   Special tools can make a job easier but they are in no manner the only way to exact a repair.  For sure more old cars were built than set of specialty tools were marketed.  Those that own them have some prized items to be proud of.....but one can do the job without them in many cases is also a known.   

[desoto1939]

18 hours ago, ratbailey said:

Success. 

All I had to do was slightly enlarge the hole with a dremel grinder. With the tap threaded in the bushing, it was easy to see which side was closer to the edge. It twisted right out with the tap. Rich, unfortunately all I'm seeing on ebay are generator end covers. You make a good point, though, about not being able to oil this. I haven't looked closely yet, but hopefully there's enough material in the cover to hold threads, and I can thread in an oil cup, like what's on the generator. 

here is the link on ebay for the cummutator end for your starter maw2002f:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/184566150184?epid=1630569240&hash=item2af8fff428:g:tdwAAOSw7elfyolr

 

this unit was use on desoto from 1938-50 same for dodge dodge truck 41-50 ply canadian 38-42 and 46-50

 

rich Hartung

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by desoto1939

[Art Bailey]

2 hours ago, desoto1939 said:

here is the link on ebay for the cummutator end for your starter maw2002f:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/184566150184?epid=1630569240&hash=item2af8fff428:g:tdwAAOSw7elfyolr

 

this unit was use on desoto from 1938-50 same for dodge dodge truck 41-50 ply canadian 38-42 and 46-50

 

rich Hartung

 

Many thanks, Rich, I grabbed it. Don't know why it wouldn't come up for me in an ebay search. However, like a man driven to climb Everest, I am still on a mission to rebuild the other commutator end, which, by God, I will do. It'll be good to have the other as a spare.

[Art Bailey]

All right, got it done. Behold, the RatBailey patented beer-powered milling machine.

 

I first tried to hold the bushing in my hand whilst reaming...ha, ha, ha. Then, I ruined one by putting a hose clamp around it and tightening it the tiniest amount. They're pretty soft. Shoved this one into a hunk of leftover heater hose, then into a deep socket. Reamed out the bushing about .015 to fit the shaft. Went .001 over, to accommodate the effects of pressing it into the hole. 

 

Badaboom.

  The fit is comparable to the NOS endcap I picked up, which is to say, it can be rocked a hair on the shaft, but it's tight at the end, if that makes sense. It's not possible to shift it perpendicular to the shaft. Close enough for government work (I hope). I can't thank you all enough for all of your input--more boneheaded questions for your entertainment coming soon...

 

-Art

[RobertKB]

Thanks for posting the end result. A lot of people who get help never tell how things ended. 

[Eneto-55]

For what it's worth:

Not to throw a wrench into the works or anything, but you aren't supposed to cut the ID of an oilite bushing, unless you use extremely sharp tools.  They say that the cutting process "smears" the material, and closes the pores, greatly reducing the self-oiling effect of the bushing.  Cutting the OD is fine, and there is a special tool that can be used on the ID, forget the name.  It doesn't cut, but has rollers or some-such that push the metal around enough to enlarge the bore. Then there's a bunch of stuff about cooking the bushing in oil if any process used got it above some certain temperature.  (No, I'm not a machinist - but I read it in my son's Machinery's Handbook.)