Steering Gear Box Questions

[keithb7]

I’m this far into my ‘38. Seems like a great time to learn what exactly is going on with the steering gear box. 
 

At the low end of the box, where to horn wire comes out, there’s what looks like a poppet-valve. Its hanging down in the pics below. The wire goes In thru the piece.  At this point I don’t quite grasp how it’s supposed to be retained in place. Looking in my service manual, the illustration there seems different than mine. 
 

As it sits, the gear box won’t hold oil. Nor grease. The grease gets hot in the engine compartment and globs out. It makes a fine mess.  

 

I figure I need to pull the gear box and have a look.

A few questions I have about pulling it:

 

It seems I need to pull the steering wheel. Then disconnect the drag link. Use a puller to remove the steering arm. Then lift the whole unit, including steering wheel shaft and tube, all out together. Is this correct? I’ve never done this sort of job  before. I think its time. 
 

I’ve not looked into a seal kit yet. Fingers crossed I can find one somewhere. 
 

Thanks for any guidance or tips. 
 

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by keithb7

[Loren]

The base plate of the steering box has somehow fractured. What you're calling a poppet valve is supposed to be part of that base plate. The function of the tube that the horn wire passes through is to retain the steering box oil. When the box is installed the tube goes up the steering shaft past the oil level. I am sure it can be brazed back in place. The base plate is where the adjustment for the steering shaft bearings is. Any play there gives you the sensation of slop in the steering. If you get them too tight the car steers hard and the wheel won't return to center. The adjustment on the top of the box (in this case the side) is for the sector engagement with the worm, too tight there and it will stick at the ends, too loose and the middle will have slop. Adjustment is a compromise of those things.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Loren

[keithb7]

Thank you @Loren . Your description makes sense. I will pull it out and try brazing it. Hopefully it’ll secure and seal, holding oil. 
 

I saw some concerns about steering wheels being stubborn. A 3” bearing separator and a 2 jaw 6” puller made for quick removal. It took under a minute to have the steering wheel off. 
 

 

 

[westaus29]

Hi Keith, merry Christmas to you and your family! Amazing how the job scope keeps expanding, but hopefully you will be back on the road soon. The aim should be to keep it on the road.

 

You are on the right track with your steering. I recently installed my box in the chassis and topped up the oil as it was quite dry. Next day there was a pool on the floor. Out it came again and replaced the seal. I took the old seal to my local auto supply store and they had one on the shelf. Not one of those stores where they ask you what car is it for, then say sorry its not in our catalogue. It was a National 352560, 1.125x1.562x0.25, price $A14. I have also seen them on ePay for stupid prices. Nifty puller you used for the wheel. I made one out of blocks of wood, steel plate, a couple of bolts and the centre of my puller 

[keithb7]

Thanks Westaus29. Merry Christmas to you and your family as well. 
 

I’m enjoying the scope of work. I’m not in hurry. I’m poking along as time allows. I suspect I’ll be waiting a while for my engine parts to arrive. USPS and other couriers have packages stacked to the ceilings in warehouses. Seems as though Christmas and Covid have created a prefect storm over here. 
 

I’ll track down and purchase the National seal you provided. Thank you. 

[westaus29]

You might double check the seal, as I discovered my box is out of 41-42 model, according to manual (Aussie manual covered 36-42 in one book). I believe  they are same except for sector shaft adjusting nut which was hidden under a cover on mine.

[Sniper]

National 352560 under $5 at Rock Auto, not sure what that works out to in AUS$ though.  Specs in the listing there as well.

[keithb7]

I’ve no experience with these steering gear boxes. I need to get tuned up. 
 

Of what I can see,

I suspect the worm gear lower bearing cone is milling itself into the cover. Maybe about .005 is gone. The square cover is concave slightly too. Perhaps so far out of adjustment for a very long time? 
 

Much reading and research to come. It’s quite an intriguing gear set. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a worm gear outside of a book. Quite robust! 
 

I get the feeling I’ll be making shims. This little side project is certainly somewhat intimidating. 
 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2020 by keithb7

[MarcDeSoto]

You probably already know about the MyMopar resources on Youtube.  Here is the Master Tech filmstrip on steering problems with a 49 Plymouth, which is probably pretty similar to your 38.  

 

[Sharps40]

Clean up the plate and flip over? Or just a light pass on a surface grinder?

 

 

Edited December 25, 2020 by Sharps40

[keithb7]

Thanks @MarcDeSoto. I did forget to go watch the Master Mechanic video. That helped me grasp a lot. I read the 1940 Motors Manual that I have too. Lights started coming on. 
 

I think I have found the worn part causing my symptoms. A photo below shows the lower steering shaft/worm gear support bearing. Lots of cage wear.  End cover was actually cupped slightly from stress.  Bearing cup was milling into the end cover. Allowing the center circular piece to pop out. Been 83 years in the making. 
 

Worm and mating roller gear looks good. New bearings, a new seal and some shims, should be all good again. 
 

When I took my end cover off there were no shims left. As bearings wear shims are removed to tighten up bearing wear. With all my shims gone, I’d wager they were pulled decades ago, to tighten things up. Now the bearing is totally spent, no make—up room left. 
 

This was a fun and interesting project. I learned a ton again.  I couldn’t quite accept what was going on. Why the symptoms were occurring. Then I saw the cage wear. I think I’m content to move ahead with the repair now. 
 

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by keithb7

[keithb7]

Seeking out parts, I thought I'd share what many of us are up against. This is ridiculous. The part is priced fine. Look at the rate to ship it to Canada. It's a flat gasket that would easily fit in a small envelope. It's frustrating sometimes as we try to keep these old cars on the road, and also manage our costs. ETA over a month. They are not kidding. Likely longer. The Ebay Global shipping program seemingly straps your part to an old wandering dog with only 3 legs.

 

I will try and cut my own gaskets and shims.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by keithb7

[MarcDeSoto]

That shipping price is really ridiculous.  I had a bad experience with that Ebay Global Shipping program.  I sent some old 78 shellac records to a collector in Toronto.  Ebay said the shipping with Fedex would be $55.  So after I shipped the box, Ebay switched it to Ebay Global and charged me $96 for shipping with no explanation.  Two weeks later the tracking showed that my records had arrived in Germany!  Then Ebay said they were going to mark me as a bad seller when the buyer put in an item not received complaint!  For a gasket that simple, I would just make your own.  Is it easy to find a new replacement for that worn roller bearing?

Edited December 27, 2020 by MarcDeSoto

[sidevalvepete]

3 hours ago, keithb7 said:

Look at the rate to ship it to Canada. It's a flat gasket that would easily fit in a small envelope. It's frustrating sometimes as we try to keep these old cars on the road, and also manage our costs. ETA over a month.

I feel your pain Keith  - and some. Got a few small bits from ABs a couple of months ago. In the past I have had good service and reasonably prompt delivery via air freight within a couple of weeks for a reasonable price. This time the USPS decided to put it on a ship from NY to San Francisco via the canal. From here the parcel went to Tokyo then Sydney before across the ditch to Auckland, NZ. Similar ripoff in price too. Won't be doing that again until all this turmoil has gone. Have heard that the various postal services around the world are all like this at present but if you use a reputable courier, like DHL, it is pretty much business as usual.

[westaus29]

Same problem in Australia. Ordered gaskets from US supplier via eBay and Global shipping program. They travelled about 100 miles then dropped off the tracking radar. The supplier eventually sent a replacement but no apology from eBay. Eventually got them after 3 months. Global shipping costs to here are similar, a total ripoff. I now put the effort into local source or make my own.

[Sniper]

You know, with a lot of gaskets scanning it at 1:1 will allow you to save a file that can be used to cut new gaskets with a CNC cutter. 

 

 

[JBNeal]

additional information - corn head grease testimonial 

[keithb7]

I’ve recently read that these Gemmer worm gears are extremely difficult to machine and reproduce. Only 3 machines were ever built to cut these worm gears. Only 1 machine remains in use today. It’s in Buenos Aires Argentina. I have contacted them for parts that I’d like. 
 

The local bearing specialty shop could do nothing with the cone and cup I brought them. These are odd bearings that seem to stump the experts. The seal mentioned above seems right. I’ve considered my options to scan and cut my own gaskets and shims. I know I can do that. However if the specialists in Argentina have everything I need, they might as well throw all I need in one box and ship it to me. I can’t imagine what the price will be...Standing by. 
 

By luck, my worm and sector gears seem good. I suspect I caught this impending failure at a good time. 
 

 

 

[kencombs]

 

 

Someone here ordered some parts from that place in SA and was very pleased.  Poorer, but pleased!

 

Angular contact ball bearings are used in thrust loads, other ball bearings don't work in that mode.  GM cars of used them as front wheel bearing until the late 50s.  Caused a lot of issues as guys would install like a tapered roller, no preload but a little free play.  The angular contact ball bearing actually require a slight preload.  When left loose they fail quickly.

 

I have a spare gearbox for my 56, but am debating swapping in a recirculating ball design.  They tend to give better feel and last forever.  Much superior to R&P IMO.

[Sniper]

Keith might just end up the North American distributor, lol.

[keithb7]

8 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Keith might just end up the North American distributor, lol.

No thanks!

 

Maybe they'll sponsor my YT channel and send me some free parts! Lol. Not likely.

[JBNeal]

5 hours ago, kencombs said:

Someone here ordered some parts from that place in SA and was very pleased.  Poorer, but pleased! ...

 

additional information - steering gearbox overhaul

[keithb7]

Thanks @JBNeal. I have been doing lots more research. 

 

I thought I would share that my Dyke’s Encyclopedia 20th edition has very thorough Gemmer gearbox setup instructions.  It seems that Dyke’s book holds a nicely preserved set of instructions right from Gemmer back in the day.
 

There’s very good descriptions listed about the differences between the various Gemmer models. It appears that I have the 305 or 335 type.  I also suspect the 305/335 models do not use a thrust washer or shims on the roller shaft. Due to the external adjustment ability. I did not see any thrust washer or shims on my roller shaft upon removal. Earlier model Gemmers had to be removed from the car completely to set he worm mesh adjustment with shims. My Gemmer has the external set screw adjustment. It claims that a thorough set up can be accomplished with the Gemmer 305/335 remaining installed in the car.

 

My 8th edition Motors Manual lists the 35/335 type as used in 40-42 Plymouths. I suppose anything could have happened in the last 83 years. Parts could have been swapped for some reason or other. I do see repair work on my car, what I think was the result of an accident. Could have needed a steering gear box replaced? It may have had a 40-42 Gemmer installed...Seems believable. 

My original ‘38 parts manual has been somewhat helpful. It does leave some gaps that I’m still trying to fill. It appears that USA built and Canadian built cars have something different about Gemmer’s used in each. I can’t quite put my finger on the exact reason for the different Gemmer parts listed for each country or origin. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by keithb7

[keithb7]

Eueka! The light bulb just came on.  My Motor's manual tells me that the same Gemmer 305/335 model gearbox that's in my '38 Plymouth is also used in '37-42 Fords. The Motors Manual was published in '42 or so.  However they carried on to use these same Gemmers up to '48 in Fords. (several years after my book was printed)  There's a billion old Fords guys out there buying parts compared to us Mopar guys. So I found a popular old Ford site. They have all the parts readily available! For cheap by comparison.

 

Seen here: https://www.earlyfordstore.com/index.php/cPath/85_165/sort/3a/page/3

 

Odd bearings. Gaskets. Shim packs. Rebuild kits. Brass bushings. Worm gears. Looking at the photos, these look correct.

$80 for all I need. I'll be placing my order very soon. We’ll see what develops. 
 

Edited December 30, 2020 by keithb7

[61farnham]

This is timely as I'm just starting to look into what's required to rebuild the steering box on my '48 P15, according to my newly acquired Hollander manual the bearings no's for your '38 box should be -

upper - Timken 5BC/6A

lower - Timken 5BC/6C

 

It list's the Ford  '38-'48 bearings as - 

upper - Timken 5BC/6

lower - Timken 5BC/6C

what the difference is between the 6 and 6A upper cup is I don't know.

 

Annoyingly the Hollander doesn't list seals but if have the parts book or the original mopar part no. for the seal you should be able to cross reference it to an up to date number using the link below -

https://www.allsealsinc.com/pdfs/Timken_Seal_Interchange_and_Cross_Reference_Guide.pdf

 

Below are couple shots of the Hollander showing bearing no's and key.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards...  Simon.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by 61farnham