Los_Control Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 I already know am going to get beat up for this question, probably deserve it I got some free 4' lights that were removed from a local Jr High school. They are old and built very solid, and working when removed ... I like them. The wiring seems funky but with help got it figured out. They started out as T12 lights, later were updated to T8. The sparky installed a 4 tube T8 ballast in every other 2 tube light, then a jumper wire from one light to run the next light without a ballast. These lights were removed from the gymnasium, must have been 50-60 lights there. So buying 25 ballast instead of 50 was considerable savings. My problem is I do not have enough 18 gauge wire. Local hardware store does not sell it ..... I have plenty of Automotive wire, enough to rewire a truck Seems to me the 18 gauge is kinda like low voltage wire for door bells and such. Could I substitute 16 gauge automotive wire instead? My other choice is a 1 hour drive to town and hope they stock/sell it or order on line ... just be nice to use what I have if possible. I know there are some pretty sharp people here with extensive electrical knowledge. Another option is to use them as is with 4 tube ballast on 2 tubes .... told they will be brighter and burn out bulbs faster but work fine .... not sure am comfortable with that either. Anyone try that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ194950 Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 I see absolutely no problems running with heavier wire. Pretty much always true, going heavier does not cause issues but going smaller than needed is where things and wires let the smoke out and maybe your place also becomes smoke. I do believe I would ask someone certified as a electrician to check out the whole idea as it seems you are asking for same on this forum. DJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted October 20, 2020 Report Share Posted October 20, 2020 I recommend you convert them to single end LED tubes now while you have them unmounted and such...takes about 12 minutes start to finish for a 4 bulb 4 foot fixture to be converted and wired with a ground pigtail. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los_Control Posted October 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2020 12 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said: I recommend you convert them to single end LED tubes now while you have them unmounted and such My first choice would be to convert to direct wire led, throw away my ballast. I cant find the bulbs or any that are compatible with my ballast around. Home depot is a 4 hour drive round trip, not going there and online only ships by the case not individual bulbs ... I need 4 bulbs not 25. After spending a week chasing led's and return the wrong ones ... Am stuck with T18 florescent until stores start stocking right bulbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted October 20, 2020 Report Share Posted October 20, 2020 (edited) single end is direct wired.....your post sounded as though you we going to work multiple light units....stores will still be way to costly....order online.....I have bought about 200 or so of these tubes...am starting conversion in the barn now. Edited October 20, 2020 by Plymouthy Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los_Control Posted October 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2020 I will be running a total of 2 fixtures = 4 bulbs total. I am replacing the original single incandescent 60 watt light bulb. = 1000% improvement. I have two extra fixtures I may hang later if I think I need them. With this small space I do not think will need them. All I can find online is led sold by the case of 25 bulbs. I think it may be to difficult to fed x a single tube and expect it to survive the trip. Makes sense to me. Other idea, these bulbs should last a long time, but if one does burn out, I want to be able to run down to the store and pickup a replacement. Maybe in another year my hardware store will start stocking them and make sense to convert then. I have the lights hanging now, I bought the bulbs, The 12/3 pigtail is ready to connect, only thing left is the 18 gauge jumper wires. I figure I have enough correct 18 gauge to run the power side of ballast. Will use 16 gauge automotive wire to jump the neutral side of ballast. If you do not hear from me, I blew myself up I just know the wires are rated differently, House wiring is single strand and the sheathing is more durable. While automotive wire is multi strand and different softer sheathing. Does it really matter to run a florescent light? All the wiring will be stapled to side of rafter in open air, easy to monitor if it gets even slightly warm I will stop using and replace. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulu Posted October 20, 2020 Report Share Posted October 20, 2020 (edited) Home wiring is designed with wire that is double insulated. Commercial wiring goes in a steel conduit and it has insulation designed to go through a conduit without damage. Automotive wire doesn’t have that. But a stranded wire is better than solid wire of the same gauge. It’s just more expensive, and it can carry more current than the solid wire. Anyhow using automotive wire in household lamps is not a problem as long as you don’t have excess heat or abuse the insulation. I put up some LED bulbs (not the tubes) in my shed the other day and when I looked at it the package said it should last 50,000 hours. I didn’t even buy sockets. I just soldered them right to the 12 gauge copper. Now, I did not come out of the commercial electrician business. I am a radio guy and I’m used to building chassis on the bench. It doesn’t bother me to solder things that cause other people grief in the future. Edited October 20, 2020 by Ulu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los_Control Posted October 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2020 28 minutes ago, Ulu said: I am a radio guy and I’m used to building chassis on the bench. It doesn’t bother me to solder things that cause other people grief in the future. I like your style 33 minutes ago, Ulu said: But a stranded wire is better than solid wire of the same gauge. It’s just more expensive, and it can carry more current than the solid wire Thats really good news. I have 2, 40' rolls of 18 gauge that I would never use in my truck and this project may be the only place I will use it. So game on! While this 10' x 22' is called a garage when it was built, I call it a tool shed. When I pull down the door in the winter time, nothing but a dark cave with existing lighting. I need to run 4 wires 15' to get on the other side of my attic shelf and connect other light. I understand the ballast will be fine up to 20'. Where existing light is, bottom of the beam is 9', above shelf is 12' peak. You have to be on a ladder to reach the wiring. I am not going to run conduit for this job. Simply gently attach wiring to rafters. I think I will be fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithb7 Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 I really like some of you guys' shops....Envious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los_Control Posted October 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 14 hours ago, keithb7 said: I really like some of you guys' shops....Envious. I suspect what you like in that photo is the architecture. The house/garage was built in 1948. The carpenter built the roof by cutting each rafter individually ... we call it stick built. Very possible @keithb7 bought a new house in 1948 and owned a 10 year old Plymouth P6, then a few years later bought a new Chrysler. It fits right in with our old car hobby. Not practical, but has character. Keith current garage is 10 times better then this tool shed ... As a retired remodel carpenter, I feel like I found a very nice driver quality rust free "house" needs some tlc to bring into great shape but works perfect as is after some work. Lights are working today for a few hours, wiring is air temp, see almost zero issues with the lights .... The only issue Is, what a frigging mess I have now that I can see. I almost want to turn them off and go back to a incandescent bulb 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linus6948 Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 I realize that the fixtures were free but I would go with LED fixtures and toss the old fixtures. The LED shop fixtures have come way down in price and amazon will deliver them to your door. The difference to use a bad pun is like day and night. They provide such superior light for a shop over fluorescent tubes it is like you removed the roof and let the sun shine in. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 this is my last lighting upgrade.......I have since picked up 10 more fixtures and another 2 cases of LEDS...I will soon be total LED shop, barn and outdoor work bay...they just too easy.....so cost effective and outright purchase....good fluorescent lights are as costly and way less efficient and lumens are way less...Running conduit for these at this height was the worst part of the job....but you would have to do that no matter the lights you using...all things being practical. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulu Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 That 18 gauge will be 0K to run several lo watt LEDs, but Don’t try to run power tools off of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los_Control Posted October 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 Quote New existing light is 1000% better then what I started with ... maybe someday I upgrade it, today is no need. I have a mess that needs to be cleaned, but decent light with T18 bulbs with the doors closed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted October 22, 2020 Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 A few years ago I added 4 4' LED fixtures in my garage. Prior to that I had 2 60w bulbs. I really like the LED lights, especially compared to fluorescent. Lots of light now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulu Posted October 22, 2020 Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 I've wired up a lot of LEDs in the past, including putting in can lights in my garage, lamps in the workshed and toolshed, and built many low to high power aquarium lights. I find there is good performance overall, and they usually last and last, but there are some inferior ones on the market. If you put up a dozen new bulbs, and one is a little "different" in the color or intensity, check that one by bulb-swapping. If your connections are good, you've found a brand with poor quality control. I've built a 5-lamp fixture from Walmart "Great Value" dimmable LED bulbs, and one is failing prematurely. It now takes more voltage to boot than the rest. They are all on one big dimmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulu Posted October 22, 2020 Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 Oh yeah. I am officially jealous of Plymouthy's pole barn and lift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los_Control Posted October 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 2 hours ago, Sniper said: A few years ago I added 4 4' LED fixtures in my garage. Prior to that I had 2 60w bulbs. I really like the LED lights, especially compared to fluorescent. Lots of light now. Good lighting is crucial to doing good work. If I lived in a big city like yours I could probably find led bulbs that work ... here in po dunkville no such animal. 16 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said: this is my last lighting upgrade...... Tough area to light because of the height, seems like you got it under control Night time and it looks like day light in work area. That new addition is really coming along nicely. I'm kinda kicking myself in the arse right now, knowing how easy it was to get decent lighting and not doing it last year. What a huge difference it has made. Now am up on a ladder and blowing the dust out of the rafters, wiping down the doors .... Thinking about a fresh coat of white paint. Then I have 2 more 4' fixtures if needed, I am thinking do not need at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBNeal Posted October 23, 2020 Report Share Posted October 23, 2020 The last 3 neighbors that I've done light upgrades for, the very next thing that was noticed was how much cleaning was needed and that the areas needed new paint...that's when I'd agree while walking out the door 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulu Posted November 8, 2020 Report Share Posted November 8, 2020 On 10/22/2020 at 7:52 PM, JBNeal said: The last 3 neighbors that I've done light upgrades for, the very next thing that was noticed was how much cleaning was needed and that the areas needed new paint... Same thing happened to me after they removed my cataracts. I could see where the paint didn't match. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted November 16, 2020 Report Share Posted November 16, 2020 wired the smaller bay today for lights.....bought fluorescent fixture and converted to LED...easy and cost effective..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los_Control Posted November 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2020 I think they would be cost effective when you have as many lights as you do. I would recommend it. Living out in the sticks, I just do not have those bulbs available to me. I would need to drive 1.5 hours one way to get them. So if a bulb burned out, would need to drive 3 hours to replace, and get back to work. Just does not make sense for me. If I own 4 light bulbs, to upgrade them to LED, the cost savings would take years to repay themselves. Honestly I am pretty happy with the traditional florescent lights. Is enough light for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted November 16, 2020 Report Share Posted November 16, 2020 buying these from a local retailer is not cost effective in my opinion, compare priced them at Lowes just today. I order these online by the case....they are then about the cost for a good set of fluorescent tubes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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