Remove drum attached to tire method

[wagoneer]

On the Internet, it seems Chrysler Plymouth drums are notoriously hard to take off requiring Various jerry-rigging methods. I’m surprised because checking brakes And adjusting was so routine at the time.

 

In the brake mtsc  videos, and in the service manual, they reference a method and show the end result in the video how you can take the drums off still attached to the wheel. In fact, that seems the preferred method for  Tech and crew. 
 

Anybody Have the straight dope on this method?

[Los_Control]

What you describe is for poor mechanic, that does not have the proper puller to do the job.

Back in the day that was common and people were creative ... did it anyways without the tool.

 

I just bought mine from ebay with shipping it was about $110. I see this one listed for $68 ... Some I bid on name brands were going for almost $200 + shipping.

But with the right tool, it was very easy to pull the drums.

 

 

[greg g]

There is always the back off the axle nut a turn or two, then drive it method.  This is what the flat rate guys did at the Dodge dealer I worked at in the mid 60s. Very rarely say them take the puller off the board.

[desoto1939]

also back when these cars were being driven every day here in the state of Pa we had to have our cars inspected every 6 months adn a front and rear brake had to be inspected.  So this made it a lot easier for the drums to come off.  Now to our current time frame so as time goes by these drums especially of the rear with the tapered axle get tighter and rust and corrosion build up. So to get the job done correctly get at least a three arm puller like the one the Los-control is showing or even a 4 arm puller and BFH  big hammer to knock off the drum.  Sometimes it take alot of hitting but they will eventually come off the axle.  I have a 5 hole puller that i use and I have always gotten my drum off.

I am refer to the on eon the left that also has the additional hole for the mounting pin that was used on the Chrysler and desoto cars that used bolts instead of wheel studs.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[wagoneer]

I've seen the puller method but the mtsc consistently shows the drums still attached to the wheels along with the wheel bearings attached as a unit .

Its recommended to ensure the drums stay round, proper measurement, and looks simpler.

 

Maybe they applied the puller to the wheel studs directly without remove the wheel?

 

Maybe this is the axle nut method Greg described?

 

See screen shots below.

 

It seems a whole lot cleaner to take off wheel plus drum in one go.

 

 

1 hour ago, greg g said:

There is always the back off the axle nut a turn or two, then drive it method.  This is what the flat rate guys did at the Dodge dealer I worked at in the mid 60s. Very rarely say them take the puller off the board.

[Los_Control]

Be fun to watch the video, if you shared the url and not a pic.

 

I joked about it a few weeks ago. I shared this photo awhile back. I suggested you stand to the side ... there is a lot of pressure on these drums and tapered axles ... you have to keep the axle nut on. They come loose with such a force, bodily injury can occur.

I also suggested to stand to the side ... when this one came loose, it was enough force the dog bone handle hit the side of the house with a good bang.

With the other side ... it was coming off a bit cockeyed. I have to leave the lug studs loose so the puller will fit. And may not had them even. Was obvious that when the drum was dragging on the brakes it was crooked ... 2 more taps and it popped free with no damage and handle just fell off and landed on the wheel.

 

These old drums are built so thick and tough, I would suspect you would break one before you could bend one.

 

Myself I could not imagine another way to pull them ... I hear  the stories ... also stories out there of a driver doing circles in a vacant lot, and a mechanic riding on the fender adjusting the valves hot.

 

Not saying it never happened, just you will never see me trying this.

 

 

 

 

 

[wagoneer]

The link to “An even brake” and all other mtsc videos and brochures is here - http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=439

 

This method of removing the tire with hub seems to be a sanctioned taught method by Chrysler themselves . It’s in the official literature and training videos. This seems to be a forgotten method replaced by the hub puller . 

Notice in the Video they wrap the exposed axle with a clean Cloth to prevent dust.

 

in fact, in the text they say when preparing to lathe the drum, to mark which lug it belongs to which bolt on the drum implying that wheels and drums belong together Due to wear patterns, and should probably be rotated together. That together would make it seem like a standard process.

 

Does anybody know how they were able to remove the hub without removing the wheel, and what how this other technique Works?

Edited July 14, 2020 by wagoneer

[Eneto-55]

If they were talking about protecting the wheel bearings, then that was the front wheels, not the rear.  If I recall correctly, my dad always left the drum on the wheel for front wheel brake work too.  But the front wheel does not require the use of a puller anyway.

[Dodgeb4ya]

They weren't able to. 

You must Remove the wheel...then use the hub/drum puller.

Service techs at the dealerships had to do it that way..

For training filming they  probably just

pulled the wheel and drum...

I occasionally do quick front brake lining checks pulling wheel and drum as a assembly.

[greg g]

Just watched the entire lesson. Other than the discussion regarding equal pressure and return pressure, there is no reference to or work on rear brakes. I have always serviced front drum brakes by pulling the drums with the wheel attached. This won't work on tapered rear axle setups, except where the hub has been popped by the back off the nut and drive it method. Once the taper is loosened, you can then pull the axle nut and wheel and drum assembly.  I did notice the car in question had unequal length friction material on the front shoes with the shorter one mounted toward the front.

[greg g]

For future service considerations once the assemblies are apart I had thought to modify the setup to be more like modern rear drum systems.  To accomplish this I would

Grind the rivets

Seperate the drum from the hub

Machine the hub as necessary to fit out studs

Reinstall the hub to the axle ( question here is would this hamper removal of the axle if needed after the modification)

Replace drum to hub using lug bolts to center the drum and wheel when wheel is torqued using a star pattern tightening sequence.

 

Any thoughts from the Brain trust?

[Los_Control]

15 minutes ago, greg g said:

Any thoughts from the Brain trust?

There is a how to thread on here where a guy did exactly that.  1 or 2 years ago.

I really see no issue .... I thought about doing that to mine .... But I am lazy.

 

Looks like my rear wheel cylinders will be here tomorrow, I have a bit more cleanup and paint to do, so I can re-assemble.

Until I drive it, I am not sold on keeping this rear end. I may swap it out for a modern 3:73 in 6 months ... If I decide I want to keep it, then I may grind the 4 rivets off.

 

[Tooljunkie]

19 hours ago, greg g said:

For future service considerations once the assemblies are apart I had thought to modify the setup to be more like modern rear drum systems.  To accomplish this I would

Grind the rivets

Seperate the drum from the hub

Machine the hub as necessary to fit out studs

Reinstall the hub to the axle ( question here is would this hamper removal of the axle if needed after the modification)

Replace drum to hub using lug bolts to center the drum and wheel when wheel is torqued using a star pattern tightening sequence.

 

Any thoughts from the Brain trust?

Guy brought me a drum/hub that he cut rivets off.  Drum center is much larger than the hub. 
I ended up drilling/tapping the holes and made up some screws that matched the dome shape of the drum rivets. Drop of loctite and snugged them up. 
 

[kencombs]

---All the sample pics and video I saw posted here are describing front brake work.  And, yes, it can be a time saver to remove dust cover, cotter key and nut to pull the wheel/tire and hub as a unit.  No other reason that I know of.   The note about marking the lug and wheel position is to preserve balance in case it was balanced as a unit, common with the old on car balancers.

 

And, the only time I've seen reference to anything similar on the rear is a kluge used by those without the puller.  Loosen the nuts as far as possible and use the tire and wheel assembly as sort of a slide hammer to pull the hub off the axle taper.

 

 

[wagoneer]

In the end, I think @desoto1939

has the most accurate answer, and the miller special tool manual reveals the truth. I refer to the Miller Special Service Tools catalog kindly hosted by the ImperialClub, specifically page 8 (attached).

 

Note that the front brakes use the universal Puller style with wheel attached. Note also that Miller tools rather pejoratively delegates this style puller for "regular and used car needs".

 

Probably why a lot of pullers are too short, is that the original intention was to use the extra space from the tire to have the hub attached to the tire. I will certainly have to try this method soon, and looks very appealing to me for getting right to the meat of the job (get to the drums).

 

This is likely the origin of the diagrams and Chrysler instructions showing both wheel and hub together for Front wheels.

 

For rear drums, the recommended tool for safe and damage-free removal is the 5 lug nut Miller Special Tool C-319. I would love to find one of these tools, but they are nowhere to be found on the internet. It seems most of these Miller tools are conspicuously absent from resale / used sites for the most part, which is very strange.

 

I did find this one that is similar - the Les Fairbanks puller -- that does the job in a similar though not quite as slick way.  http://www.chrysler300club.com/rcmstuff/fairbanks/puller.html

 

 

 

On 7/15/2020 at 12:34 AM, desoto1939 said:

 

 

 

 

 

also back when these cars were being driven every day here in the state of Pa we had to have our cars inspected every 6 months adn a front and rear brake had to be inspected.  So this made it a lot easier for the drums to come off.  Now to our current time frame so as time goes by these drums especially of the rear with the tapered axle get tighter and rust and corrosion build up. So to get the job done correctly get at least a three arm puller like the one the Los-control is showing or even a 4 arm puller and BFH  big hammer to knock off the drum.  Sometimes it take alot of hitting but they will eventually come off the axle.  I have a 5 hole puller that i use and I have always gotten my drum off.

I am refer to the on eon the left that also has the additional hole for the mounting pin that was used on the Chrysler and desoto cars that used bolts instead of wheel studs.

 

Rich Hartung

 

 

 

 

Desoto1939@aol.com