A shot across the bow, Exhaust Seats and Valve Guides

[martybose]

Attached is a photo of the box that the valves that were used in my 230 inch flathead.  The basic valves were 327 Chevy exhaust valves (better material) that were cut down to the specified head diameters.  The stem diameters, valve length, valve lock types, etc. are all standard Chevrolet.

 

Marty

 

[55 Fargo]

38 minutes ago, martybose said:

Attached is a photo of the box that the valves that were used in my 230 inch flathead.  The basic valves were 327 Chevy exhaust valves (better material) that were cut down to the specified head diameters.  The stem diameters, valve length, valve lock types, etc. are all standard Chevrolet.

 

Marty

 

Boxes of parts don't offer that much insight on the use and implementation of these valves in an actual Chrysler flathead build. 

Reckon you did not take pics.

or did they go into this engine?

Edited February 2, 2020 by 55 Fargo

[martybose]

No, that is not my engine, it looks like Don's.  Mine was a 1952 Dodge 230, that was overbored 0.072" and painted brown.

 

I don't know what you expect to see in an "implementation" picture.  My engine had the stock valve seats milled out and hardened seats installed, and the stock guides had bronze inserts installed.  The valves were dropped in with stock springs, stock retainers, and Chevy valve locks were used.  Not much to see there.

 

Martin Bose

[James_Douglas]

I thought about changing the car to a SBC, but the steering issues were such that I would in essence have to cut the entire front end off and replace it all. (Go read my old posts detailing why if you wish).

 

I do not have an over heating issue 99% of the time. I do however if and when I get hung up in stop and go traffic on a hot day. I have a aux electric fan and it helps. But if I get hung up in stop and go at a crawl for 15 to 30 minutes there just is not enough flow and air to pull the heat off. I have new copper, dimple tubes and a high flow vane water pump.

 

Basically, with the fluid coupling or a torque converter the drag on the engine at low speed causes more heat than the entire system was designed to get rid of.

 

That is why I will be attacking it at all levels. From the valves and seats, out to the water flow, to the radiator fans and the like.

 

The pump I will be using is from Davies Craig. They are in Australia. You can get their stuff on Summit. They make an iterated pump and fan controller I may also use.

 

James

[55 Fargo]

1 hour ago, martybose said:

No, that is not my engine, it looks like Don's.  Mine was a 1952 Dodge 230, that was overbored 0.072" and painted brown.

 

I don't know what you expect to see in an "implementation" picture.  My engine had the stock valve seats milled out and hardened seats installed, and the stock guides had bronze inserts installed.  The valves were dropped in with stock springs, stock retainers, and Chevy valve locks were used.  Not much to see there.

 

Martin Bose

Interesting, so what was wrong with the factory hardened seats?

Perhaps your engine is a ,"top" secret build.

No further questions....lol

[Dodgeb4ya]

Seems now days something has changed to cause these old flatheads to not be very reliable unless heavily modified I guess.

All I ever drove was mopar flathead cars and trucks till I was in my mid thirties.

Never had any engine failures of any kind.Yes the temp gauge would rise up in hot weather but never pushed fluid out or scared me!

I put 65,000 miles on my 53 Plymouth Savoy wagon. I used to drive it over in "Hot" eastern Washington hauling back loads of old Dodge truck parts.

MY Dodge pu with a 265 I put in it back in 73 with 30,000 miles on it is still running fine with never an issue...though same thing....temp gauge rises on long hills and long stops in hot weather.

Never pushed fluid out or over heated.

Big red...the 4 tonner same story..

I drive them...their fine as built.

[James_Douglas]

20 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Seems now days something has changed to cause these old flatheads to not be very reliable unless heavily modified I guess.

All I ever drove was mopar flathead cars and trucks till I was in my mid thirties.

Never had any engine failures of any kind.Yes the temp gauge would rise up in hot weather but never pushed fluid out or scared me!

I put 65,000 miles on my 53 Plymouth Savoy wagon. I used to drive it over in "Hot" eastern Washington hauling back loads of old Dodge truck parts.

MY Dodge pu with a 265 I put in it back in 73 with 30,000 miles on it is still running fine with never an issue...though same thing....temp gauge rises on long hills and long stops in hot weather.

Never pushed fluid out or over heated.

Big red...the 4 tonner same story..

I drive them...their fine as built.

Yes. But, did you do it with one that had a Fluid Coupling or a Torque Converter or where they all 3-speeds?

 

A stick and it is no problem. Five or ten minutes in gear stopped with a Fluid Coupling or a Torque Converter and it will over heat even on a moderate day. That is why Chrysler stated to not do it! I can de-gear it and put it in neutral and it will idle all day when the outside temp is 105F without any issues. I put it in gear and I have about 5 to 10 minutes. Since I am getting older, and I want to keep driving this as my primary car, I want to sit in traffic in gear and not have it overheat.

 

James.

[Dodgeb4ya]

I have my 48 T&C 8 cylinder convertible I've had for 40 plus years and driven it plenty over the years...same story.

Also two 50 NewYorker hardtops...same...

The gauge will rise but never to the point of oh oh.

They will rise to just under 200...

Of course FD couplings with m5/my drive trains.

[Young Ed]

17 hours ago, 55 Fargo said:

Im sure it was at some point.

But this is a pic of Don at somebody's shop building a flathead 6.

Not sure if this was his and later painted blue and when he bought a dual intake and exhaust from George Asche.

This engine definitely did not have Chevy valves though. 

look at the whole picture. The car in the background is clearly not Don's P15 and that is not his engine. I don't get what you are trying to prove here....

[55 Fargo]

12 minutes ago, Young Ed said:

look at the whole picture. The car in the background is clearly not Don's P15 and that is not his engine. I don't get what you are trying to prove here....

What? Because somebody else's car is in the pic, its definitely not his engine. Not sure if it is or isn't. However Don is in the pics on this engine build.

Don built a few engines?

What are you trying to prove?

We are trying to determine what Chevrolet Valves he used in what engine.

You built a few engines, did you need to use Chevy valves and different seats?

This thread is about valve train upgrades and my block being at the machine shop Im considering all upgrades.

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by 55 Fargo

[Young Ed]

3 minutes ago, 55 Fargo said:

What?

Don built a few engines?

What are you trying to prove?

We are trying to determine what Chevrolet Valves he used in what engine.

You built a few engines, did you need to use Chevy valves and different seats?

This thread is about valve train upgrades and my block being at the machine shop Im considering all upgrades.

 

Well don isn't here to answer what he used so you'll have to do your own research. I didn't build either of my engines but they have stock valves. One has new and one still has the old possibly originals

[55 Fargo]

8 minutes ago, Young Ed said:

Well don isn't here to answer what he used so you'll have to do your own research. I didn't build either of my engines but they have stock valves. One has new and one still has the old possibly originals

I realize that Ed on Don.

And for a majority of flathead owners these valves and seats fit the bill.

Heck 60 to 80 year old engines in service is quite an engineering accomplishment.

[T120]

I would have considered it an honour to have had this team visit my garage..?

 

[Young Ed]

I feel fortunate that Don that car and it's owner (I'm blanking on his name at the moment) did stop at my garage. They were on a long roadtrip and their generator was giving them issues. I grabbed a spare, dropped it to rebuilt on my lunch break, picked it up after work, and them met up with the guys for dinner. 

 

Just now, T120 said:

I would have considered it an honour to have had this team visit my garage..?

 

 

 

[martybose]

12 hours ago, 55 Fargo said:

Interesting, so what was wrong with the factory hardened seats?

Perhaps your engine is a ,"top" secret build.

No further questions....lol

When I bought the motor it was a worn out 0.060" over motor that had been rebuilt at least once, maybe twice.  The stock valve seats were both beat up and slightly burned, so it made sense to replace them.  Nothing secret about that.

 

Marty

[55 Fargo]

5 hours ago, martybose said:

When I bought the motor it was a worn out 0.060" over motor that had been rebuilt at least once, maybe twice.  The stock valve seats were both beat up and slightly burned, so it made sense to replace them.  Nothing secret about that.

 

Marty

.060 and to what .080.

What was the crank journals and rods measuring?

Burnt seats would have been a good idea to find new block perhaps.

I've seen burnt valves but dont recall seat issues.

sounds like your engine was abused.

[martybose]

4 hours ago, 55 Fargo said:

.060 and to what .080.

What was the crank journals and rods measuring?

Burnt seats would have been a good idea to find new block perhaps.

I've seen burnt valves but dont recall seat issues.

sounds like your engine was abused.

No, it was 0.072 over, just like I said.  We measured everything and figured out what the minimum overbore was to clean the bores.  Then we went through a ring catalog and found a modern metric ring set from a Toyota that would be a 0.072" overbore.  Then we sent the ring set  and a stock piston to Venolia and had custom forged pistons made for the ring set.  We installed a honing plate on the block, then bored and honed to spec.

The crank was in perfect condition, went back in the block with stock size bearings.  Then engine may have been abused, but it was treated like a queen when it was put back together, and is still going strong now.  We didn't see any reason to find another block when we could fix this one.

 

Marty

 

PS. the photo of the boxes give you the diameters of the valves we used.  Any competent machine shop can cut down the OD of the head and then cut the back side for the seat.  A little research of catalogs might find some Chevy valves that are the right size, we just ordered some in the size we wanted.

Edited February 3, 2020 by martybose
added the postscript.

[James_Douglas]

21 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

I have my 48 T&C 8 cylinder convertible I've had for 40 plus years and driven it plenty over the years...same story.

Also two 50 NewYorker hardtops...same...

The gauge will rise but never to the point of oh oh.

They will rise to just under 200...

Of course FD couplings with m5/my drive trains.

 

My good friend and neighbor here in San Francisco has a low mileage 1946 Chrysler Town and Country Convertible. If he stops in gear for more than 10 minutes it starts to heat up just like my flathead sixes.  I guess you are just lucky. I am not, Don is not, and at least two or three other people I have talked to about this issue also have the same thing happen when stuck in hot stop and go highway traffic are not. My 98 point concourse 1949 Desoto Convertible also does the same thing.

 

I cannot explain the difference between your experience and ours.

 

 

 

 

[Merle Coggins]

I only have had a problem one time with running hot while stopped on the FD in my truck. This past summer I was in stop-n-go traffic in St. Ignace, MI (Mackinac Bridge traffic). It good a good 15-20 minutes but I started to notice the temp nearing overheat range. I stepped on the clutch and revved up the engine a bit. The added air flow and coolant circulation brought the temp back down. I then just used the clutch more as we crept forward an inch or foot at a time.

[55 Fargo]

37 minutes ago, James_Douglas said:

 

My good friend and neighbor here in San Francisco has a low mileage 1946 Chrysler Town and Country Convertible. If he stops in gear for more than 10 minutes it starts to heat up just like my flathead sixes.  I guess you are just lucky. I am not, Don is not, and at least two or three other people I have talked to about this issue also have the same thing happen when stuck in hot stop and go highway traffic are not. My 98 point concourse 1949 Desoto Convertible also does the same thing.

 

I cannot explain the difference between your experience and ours.

 

 

 

 

Ambient ground surface temp at location

-relative humidity in location

-Ambient underhood temp and dissipation of such

airflow and heat dissipation over rad surfaces

-coolant flow rates

-radiator cooling efficiency

-fuel thermal rates

-your cooling passages partially obstructed,

On your 49 Concourse car, not gonna make a "hill of beans" difference.

Electric fans on rad, could help, or pull your hood off for summer.

Your car is a hulk of a tank, weight wise, add a couple of heavy adults in it, and bingo, that little 251 or 265 is working dam hard and getting heated up.

The big question, do you boil over, do you stall car and get stranded, do you lose all power because your fuel is boiling?

If not, what is your basic troubles, a hot engine in stand still traffic, on a hot day?

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by 55 Fargo

[Dodgeb4ya]

1 hour ago, James_Douglas said:

 

My good friend and neighbor here in San Francisco has a low mileage 1946 Chrysler Town and Country Convertible. If he stops in gear for more than 10 minutes it starts to heat up just like my flathead sixes.  I guess you are just lucky. I am not, Don is not, and at least two or three other people I have talked to about this issue also have the same thing happen when stuck in hot stop and go highway traffic are not. My 98 point concourse 1949 Desoto Convertible also does the same thing.

 

I cannot explain the difference between your experience and ours.

 

 

 

 

Please don't go to Pebble Beach

 Extremely long idling times getting on the lawn ....

Low mileage and 98 point cars has nothing to do to prevent a car from running hot...

These old MoPars were driven every day and no one back then tried to re-engineer them to today's "perfect" standards. Silly.

The black cloud over head might be causing all the issues.

[Sniper]

Did you have your radiator cleaned and flow tested?

 

Do the machinist clean all the gunk out of the bottom of the cooling jackets?

 

Did they install a new water distribution tube?

 

Is the proper thermostat being used and was it tested for proper operation?

 

Was the water pump impeller inspected?

 

Are the correct pulleys being used?

 

Was an oil temp gauge hooked up to see if the heat is coming from the oil?  IIRC the trans and engine shared the oil.

 

I live in west Texas and 100+ degree days are common.  I don't over heat, but I have a manual.

[55 Fargo]

1 hour ago, Sniper said:

Did you have your radiator cleaned and flow tested?

 

Do the machinist clean all the gunk out of the bottom of the cooling jackets?

 

Did they install a new water distribution tube?

 

Is the proper thermostat being used and was it tested for proper operation?

 

Was the water pump impeller inspected?

 

Are the correct pulleys being used?

 

Was an oil temp gauge hooked up to see if the heat is coming from the oil?  IIRC the trans and engine shared the oil.

 

I live in west Texas and 100+ degree days are common.  I don't over heat, but I have a manual.

Good Stuff and often overlooked by flathead owners. Nothing like West Texas heat, cept the lower desert of So Cal and Arizona .Dont think San Fran no where near as hot..

Interesting on "oil temp", most times people don't get there engines oil temps hot enough, causing sledge and such, gettin it to heated temps are good to a point...

[TodFitch]

Please keep this discussion civil and on a technical level.

[James_Douglas]

Well,

 

To answer people one way or the other...

 

First off, if I push the clutch in and turn on the electric fan, I can deal with stop and go traffic in 105F weather all day long. Going forward, since my wife likes to drive, now and then, and has a bad left knee...I want to make the car so that it can sit in a traffic back up for an hour dead still and in gear and on a coupling or converter and not over heat.

 

My point about the '49 being concourse is that everything is new and in correct factory working order and it has the same problem. My meaning is that the factory obviously did not think that standing in a 5 mile line of cars not moving much on a 105F day was a likely event. They were correct for 1949. In addition, I have read in some factory publication that they recommended that a fluid coupling car not sit dead still with the car in gear for more than 5 minutes. It was either in a Service Technical Bulletin or one of the little white repair booklets. I do not remember which.

 

My 1947 Desoto has:

 

1. The engine block was acid dipped for a week to make sure that not only was all oil and grease removed, but also any mineral deposits from the water over the decades as well. This block was cleaner than new, inside and out, when the machine work was done.

 

2. The new water distribution tube was matched at the face of the block to the opening so that all the water flowed down the tube and not some of it around it.

 

3. The water pump has an impeller that does flow more water than stock. The "old man" at a pump manufacturer and repair house (Arms Pumps)  here in Northern California had collected Dodge Trucks and he designed a bronze impeller that works better than either the stock one or the Gates (NAPA) replacements. (I have had the same problem with a stock pump, his pump and a Gates pump).

 

4. The radiator is new and had "dimple" tubes used so the water will tumble and improve the thermal transfer.

 

5. Stock 180F thermostat.

 

6. Six blade steel Dodge truck fan.

 

7. Car is not running lean.

 

Given the above, that is why I am looking to find ways to improve the zero to 15 MPH cooling ability of this engines design. One way that is used by the modern car companies to keep the combustion chambers cooler is to use special alloys in the exhaust seats and the valve guides. These special allows transfer of heat out of the chamber more efficiently than the older materials.

 

In my case, IF the exhaust seats need to be replaced...I will look into using the new exotic materials. I will defiantly use bronze for the guides as one can use closer tolerances with it. I will also be sleeving the lifter bores back to factory size. Those sleeves will be a bronze alloy as well.

 

Like I said in the opening of this thread. If anyone wants me to keep them in the loop to possibly get some of these items for their use...when I get around to placing an order in a few months for them I will let you know directly. Just drop me a internal note or an email.

 

James.