trying a different fuel pump

[harmony]

Before I start I should mention that the fuel pump in my '48 is a Carter MO-529.  I'm told by Then and Now that it is from a 1946.  The Fuel pump from the '47 is a Carter MO-1531.

 

My engine on my 48 Chrysler is a 251 and I want to try and see if I can use a fuel pump off a '47 with the same engine.  However as the pictures show the contact arm that rides on the camshaft is different.  Firstly the arm on my '48 fuel pump has a bend in it.  The '47 is straight.  But I've studied the two  and taken lots of measurements and I'm pretty sure the only difference is the angle of the wear area, as it touches the cam.  However the '47 is slightly shorter, about a 1/16".  The picture of the wear mark is from my '48 fuel pump.  So since they ride on the cam about the same place once you subtract a 1/16"  you can see that if I install the '47 in my engine there won't be much steel past the wearing area. 

Should I assume that the wearing point is bottom dead centre of the cam so to say?  

I'm curious about what direction the cam is turning?  If it's turning counterclockwise then that might be a bit comforting because the rotation will be going away on the arm.  If it's turning clockwise it will be turning towards the arm. To make my point if I was to put a really thick gasket on the fuel pump and the cam was turning clockwise, I would be worried that the arm might slide up a bit and get destroyed.  Thinking that scenario through the weak point would probably be the aluminium body of the fuel pump. I don't really want to take that risk of breaking anything to be honest.  

As for the angle of the wearing point on the  two different arms in relationship to the cam, I can't really see what difference it might make as long as it is making contact at the dead bottom of the camshaft.

You might be wondering why I want to try this and that is a nightmare of a story.  Long and short of it is I don't have my '48 fuel pump and I have no idea when I will see it again.  So I'm hoping this will be an alternative solution, short of going online and buying a new one which will probably be made in China and who knows what shape or length of arm it will have. 

[Sam Buchanan]

Is converting to an electric pump not an option? Seems like that would be far more reliable than using a mongrel mechanical pump.....

Edited December 14, 2019 by Sam Buchanan

[harmony]

20 minutes ago, Sam Buchanan said:

Is converting to an electric pump not an option? Seems like that would be far more reliable than using a mongrel mechanical pump.....

No not an option for me.  My car is close to being almost all original and unmolested and unrestored.  However if I try this '47 fuel pump and it doesn't work then I might consider that option just to get the car back on the road until I can get my fuel pump back.  That's assuming they make 6 volt positive ground electric fuel pumps

[Tooljunkie]

6 volt pumps are available. 
pos ground doesent matter,as the mount is isolated and you have 2 wires to connect any way you need. 

[squirebill]

Camshaft rotates clockwise looking at the front of the engine (same as the crankshaft and connected by the timing chain).  Seems to me the dwell portion of the fuel pump cam lobe would be in the center of the wear pattern on the fuel pump arm.  As the lobe continues to rotate the high point of the lobe  would swipe the pump arm out towards the free end of the arm then come back through the center of the wear pattern and swipe through the wear pattern toward the fixed end of the arm.  As long as you gasket thickness is less than the distance from the free end of the pump arm to the begining of the wear pattern you should be good.

[desoto1939]

According to my Napa Catalog dated july 1954 the fuel pump for Chryslers  all 6 cylinders from 1938 to 1953 would be an AC number 588 or Rayloc for the same years is 4588  also rayloc rebuilt pump from 38-52 is 588.

 

So the cross refereance to an Aitex would be a 588

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

rich hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

[harmony]

4 hours ago, desoto1939 said:

According to my Napa Catalog dated july 1954 the fuel pump for Chryslers  all 6 cylinders from 1938 to 1953 would be an AC number 588 or Rayloc for the same years is 4588  also rayloc rebuilt pump from 38-52 is 588.

 

So the cross refereance to an Aitex would be a 588

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

rich hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

Thanks, I'll keep those number in mind. 

Kanter's website shows that they have one.  '39- '52 single action for 6 cyl.  But no picture or # reference other than their own.  

I would suspect the engines were the same on '46- '48.  But in the parts catalog they show different p/n for the fuel pump rocker arm depending on the engine #.  One p/n is for engine # 15106  and from 15167 - 18308 and from 27683- 32008.   What about the engine numbers other than those? 

Then another p/n for fuel pump rocker arm (RHD).  What would RHD stand for?  surely not right hand drive? 

 

Plus as you can see there is a difference in the two arms I have for the fuel pumps and they are both Carter fuel pumps. Makes one wonder why ?  Unless the earlier ones were not performing as well or breaking down.

[Veemoney]

I believe it should be fine running the 47 pump since the wear area should make full contact on the 47 pump. You could use some Dykem blue or just paint on the 47 pump lever and then install it. Turn the engine over a couple times then remove the pump and check where the wear marks are on the 47 pump to confirm it will be good. Also you'll want to make sure as you rotate the engine the pump lever has good travel so I would turn it slowly by hand. 

[kencombs]

I just looked at my old Hollander.  They show all pumps for all mopar 6s, all sizes, from 39-54 to interchange.  With a note to 'change rocker arms as needed'.  So if you're up for removing the pin and swapping shouldn't be an issue.

 

That said, I'd be it will work as is. 

[harmony]

11 minutes ago, kencombs said:

I just looked at my old Hollander.  They show all pumps for all mopar 6s, all sizes, from 39-54 to interchange.  With a note to 'change rocker arms as needed'.  So if you're up for removing the pin and swapping shouldn't be an issue.

 

That said, I'd be it will work as is. 

I'm curious what is meant by " change rocker arms as needed" In other words why would you want to change the rocker arm? If it's needed to change the arm, then why would the pump be manufactured that way. Unless the pump is also made to fit ( mounting hole alignment) an International Harvester tractor or something like that.

[harmony]

15 minutes ago, kencombs said:

I just looked at my old Hollander.  They show all pumps for all mopar 6s, all sizes, from 39-54 to interchange.  With a note to 'change rocker arms as needed'.  So if you're up for removing the pin and swapping shouldn't be an issue.

 

That said, I'd be it will work as is. 

 

27 minutes ago, Veemoney said:

I believe it should be fine running the 47 pump since the wear area should make full contact on the 47 pump. You could use some Dykem blue or just paint on the 47 pump lever and then install it. Turn the engine over a couple times then remove the pump and check where the wear marks are on the 47 pump to confirm it will be good. Also you'll want to make sure as you rotate the engine the pump lever has good travel so I would turn it slowly by hand. 

Since I don't have the fuel pump that I took off my car, my only option is try the pump from the '47 or buy a new one.  I like your idea of painting the wear area on the '47 pump and cranking the engine by hand.

[Andydodge]

My understanding is that all fuel pumps made to bolt onto a mopar side valve six will work.......there are various differences in relation to whether they are a single stage or have a wiper vaccum attachment above the fuel pump part but as for the fuel side of things whether the arm pushes on the side, above, below or wherever so long as it gets pushed by the cam lobe then it should pump fuel.......some pumps are sealed, most are held together with half a dozen screws around the edge allowing for the inlet/outlet location to be changed to suit a particular setup but when you go to push it against the mounting area and you can feel the arm pushing against the cam lobe then its good to go..........at least thats what I've found over the past 40 odd years........and I've yet to see a mopar fuel pump that cares whether it is in a RHD or LHD car...........I've never let on and the fuel pump has never worked it out either.........lol................andyd  

[Tom Skinner]

If you go to ebay and type in 1946 Chrysler, you will be able to buy various Fuel Pumps for a 251 as cores. I just saw 2 one for $10 the other for $22.

Youcan observe the armatures as well in the pictures. Airtex has one like the 588 that can also be bought new for around $70. There is an Antique Car Cellar somewhere in the NE that also sells the rebuild kits for these Fuel Pumps as well. I have driven several 1948 Chrysler's for 45 years and would not put electric Fuel Pump on any of them.

It is a matter of mechanical pride on my part not to go away from original. These cars are meant for mechanically inclined people. A mechanic.

The choice is really between two W's - do you grab a Wrench to fix it? or do you grab your Wallet to fix it?

There is no right or wrong, so sensitive types need not reply. This is only my Humble Opinion and nothing more.

Tom

[1949 Wraith]

13 hours ago, harmony said:

I'm curious what is meant by " change rocker arms as needed" In other words why would you want to change the rocker arm? If it's needed to change the arm, then why would the pump be manufactured that way. Unless the pump is also made to fit ( mounting hole alignment) an International Harvester tractor or something like that.

I have removes some fuel pumps from old Chrysler engines and on 2 there have been small spot welds to raise the contact point on the lever arm of the fuel pump. There was no evident wear on the cam lobes of these engines,  modifications to make various fuel pumps to work of correctly.

Edited December 15, 2019 by 1949 Wraith

[desoto1939]

RHD is for Right hand Drive. They did export to Europe and Australia so there would have been Right hand drive.  In the early years such as my 39 Desoto they also had 12 volt electrical systems instead of 6volt like here in the USA.

 

I do not think the rocker arm is going to make that much of an issue. As far as I have seen the AC or AC588 FP will work on all of these cars.

 

Some people replace the mechanical FP with an all electric FP. But the electric pump has to be installed near the gas tank. Electric pumps are a pusher type of pump and the mechanical is a puller type of pump.

 

A lot of us owners have installed the electric pump as a backup pump and use it after the cr has sat for a while to help prime the carb with gas prior to cranking the engine.  I personally do not recommend that you only use the electric pump instead of the mechanical.  If doing this then you will need a cutoff value installed to insure that if there is an accident or the car rolls over that the electric fp is automatically turned off and also a reflow line back to the gas tank if the pump is pumping to much gas to the carb.

 

Rich Hartung

[harmony]

3 hours ago, Tom Skinner said:

If you go to ebay and type in 1946 Chrysler, you will be able to buy various Fuel Pumps for a 251 as cores. I just saw 2 one for $10 the other for $22.

Youcan observe the armatures as well in the pictures. Airtex has one like the 588 that can also be bought new for around $70. There is an Antique Car Cellar somewhere in the NE that also sells the rebuild kits for these Fuel Pumps as well. I have driven several 1948 Chrysler's for 45 years and would not put electric Fuel Pump on any of them.

It is a matter of mechanical pride on my part not to go away from original. These cars are meant for mechanically inclined people. A mechanic.

The choice is really between two W's - do you grab a Wrench to fix it? or do you grab your Wallet to fix it?

There is no right or wrong, so sensitive types need not reply. This is only my Humble Opinion and nothing more.

Tom

I completely agree with your "W" theory.  I'm tickled pink when I look under the hood or under the dash and see all the original wiring and fuses.  I dread the day when I have to change a fuse because it just wouldn't be the same. 

As for that company in the NE that rebuilds fuel pumps.  Well that's what started this whole fiasco.  My fuel pump sprung a leak and I want to keep things as original as possible.  Granted it appears the pump has been changed out sometime down the road, but I felt it was better than buying a new one made in China.  That company,  rebuilt it and it failed.  I'm in BC Canada, they're in Maine, I mailed it back to them a second time and that's when the US Customs got a hold of it and flew it down to San Francisco, for no other reason than to just piss me off. They claim they have the legal right to hold it for 45 days.  They also claim they have the legal right to take another 45 days to notify me of their intentions, before I can start paperwork on a formal complaint.

I guess I'm just an old fart but I love walking up to a parts counter and seeing what I'm buying.  I don't have an ebay account or paypal or buy from amazon or any of that crap.  Which is one reason I decided to go with that company back east.  You can actually talk to someone on the phone and pay with a CC.  Of course it would have been a bonus if they had rebuilt it properly the first time.  But it is what it is and I want my car back on the road ASAP.  

[harmony]

27 minutes ago, desoto1939 said:

RHD is for Right hand Drive. They did export to Europe and Australia so there would have been Right hand drive.  In the early years such as my 39 Desoto they also had 12 volt electrical systems instead of 6volt like here in the USA.

 

I do not think the rocker arm is going to make that much of an issue. As far as I have seen the AC or AC588 FP will work on all of these cars.

 

Some people replace the mechanical FP with an all electric FP. But the electric pump has to be installed near the gas tank. Electric pumps are a pusher type of pump and the mechanical is a puller type of pump.

 

A lot of us owners have installed the electric pump as a backup pump and use it after the cr has sat for a while to help prime the carb with gas prior to cranking the engine.  I personally do not recommend that you only use the electric pump instead of the mechanical.  If doing this then you will need a cutoff value installed to insure that if there is an accident or the car rolls over that the electric fp is automatically turned off and also a reflow line back to the gas tank if the pump is pumping to much gas to the carb.

 

Rich Hartung

I drove my parents crazy as a kid with my curiosity for a logical explanation for everything.  Why? Why? Why?  

So what could possibly be the difference between a RHD and a LHD fuel pump?  It's the same engine block, isn't it?  I don't even think the exhaust manifold would interfere with the steering linkage.  But perhaps the exhaust pipe might have to be re-routed.  It's way to far forward to be interfering with any steering linkage.  

[harmony]

10 hours ago, Andydodge said:

My understanding is that all fuel pumps made to bolt onto a mopar side valve six will work.......there are various differences in relation to whether they are a single stage or have a wiper vaccum attachment above the fuel pump part but as for the fuel side of things whether the arm pushes on the side, above, below or wherever so long as it gets pushed by the cam lobe then it should pump fuel.......some pumps are sealed, most are held together with half a dozen screws around the edge allowing for the inlet/outlet location to be changed to suit a particular setup but when you go to push it against the mounting area and you can feel the arm pushing against the cam lobe then its good to go..........at least thats what I've found over the past 40 odd years........and I've yet to see a mopar fuel pump that cares whether it is in a RHD or LHD car...........I've never let on and the fuel pump has never worked it out either.........lol................andyd  

I wouldn't be so concerned if the arm was just a weeeee bit longer. In that case it would either work or not work.  I'm just concerned that if it's too short,,,,,,,  BAHMMM !!!!

[desoto1939]

Harmoney: stop worry about RH and LH drive.  You have a LH drive.  Go to a napa store and have them order a 588 FP. put it in the car you will be fine.  Attach a the metal fuel line to the  outlet end on the fp.  Disconnect the line at the carb and have a can to catach the fuel when the engine is turning over. If you are getting fuel into the can then you are good to go. The attach the fuel line back on the carb.  Then start the car. If the car runs and accelerates without any issues then you are also good to go.  You are over thinking this issue.

 

Rich Hartung

[harmony]

34 minutes ago, desoto1939 said:

Harmoney: stop worry about RH and LH drive.  You have a LH drive.  Go to a napa store and have them order a 588 FP. put it in the car you will be fine.  Attach a the metal fuel line to the  outlet end on the fp.  Disconnect the line at the carb and have a can to catach the fuel when the engine is turning over. If you are getting fuel into the can then you are good to go. The attach the fuel line back on the carb.  Then start the car. If the car runs and accelerates without any issues then you are also good to go.  You are over thinking this issue.

 

Rich Hartung

I was just reading a post by you back in 2014.  You mentioned that the AC588 has been re manufactured as Airtex  73201.  Is that correct? Is there an advantage or disadvantage of the glass bowl on the 73201

Edited December 15, 2019 by harmony
added question

[desoto1939]

the advantage to the glass bowel is that you can see and dirt or sediment that has come up from the gas tank. Since sediment is heavy it will drop to the bottom of the glass bowel.  This can then be removed by loosening the wire clip on the bowel and removing the glass bowel and cleanout the dirt.

 

Some people also put a filter with a glass bowel on the fuel line just before it enters the carb as a second prevent in case some dirt got past the fuel pump.

 

I like the glass bowel because you can see if it needs to be cleaned a sealed metal inline filter you cannot see the dirt.  Also some do not recommend using a plastic inline filter because there is a possibility of the plastic melting and then gas can drip on the manifold and then catch on fire. 

 

The new Airtex is the remake of the old 588 pump.

 

Rich Hartung

[kencombs]

Not Rich, but I'll comment anyway.  Airtex 73201 is a fitment number, not a specific configuration,  and there have been a number of physically different pumps that had that number.  Google the image and you'll see what I mean.

 

The glass sediment bowl may be good for you, IF you have some junk in the tank.  Otherwise, it's just another potential leak point.  Personally, I'd opt for a traditional filter.

[Andydodge]

I'm in Oz, yep we have RHD, it does not affect the fuel pump as the RHD steering box is between the fuel and oil pumps and its only if you want to install Fenton or similar headers that issues arise in relation to enough clearance where the RHD steering box lives...............the fuel pump is NOT a problem.........andyd   

[harmony]

Does anyone have any view points on the importance of the heat shield that attaches to the top of the fuel pump.  My car didn't have one when I got it.  I have since made one to match the OE shield.  However you can't see the pump with that installed.   If I had that shield in place I might not have spotted the fuel leak in the first place as soon as I did.  Also I would need a mirror and a flashlight to get a look at the glass bowl if I had one with that feature.  I have read that the heat shield keeps the gas cooler and therefore has a better combustion.  But my car ran ok without the shield.

I can see if it's regarding a dragster or a formula 1 car.  But my old girl is a slug.

[harmony]

2 minutes ago, Andydodge said:

I'm in Oz, yep we have RHD, it does not affect the fuel pump as the RHD steering box is between the fuel and oil pumps and its only if you want to install Fenton or similar headers that issues arise in relation to enough clearance where the RHD steering box lives...............the fuel pump is NOT a problem.........andyd   

Have you ever had your fuel pump off the car?  I'm curious what the difference is.