CHS Ricardo Cavallero S.R.L manual steering boxes

[bkahler]

Hi All,

 

It's been a number of years since I've posted to a thread.  I have a 1951 B3B that I started restoring in 1997 and reached a point by 2001 where the chassis was basically done, all body work done and painted and then I got married.  At that point all the work pretty much stopped.  Fast forward to today and I'm looking to finally get back to working on the truck.  

 

The only issue remaining on the chassis is the steering gearbox.  The steering box is in pretty bad shape with lots of play in the wheel and adjustments are not going to fix the problem.  I did a lot of searching via google and finally came up with a company in Argentina call CHS Ricardo Cavallero S.R.L.  They appear to be a rather large company that fabricates or reproduces a lot of the Gemmer manual gearboxes.  

 

I've been in discussion with them about parts for my 51 and it turns out they offer a steering kit K-8777 which contains the following parts:

 

- 1 (one) Gear worm.

- 1 (one) Roller-kit  ( 1 roller, 1 pin for riveting, 2 oversize washers & the full complement of needle rollers)

- 1 (one) Lower bearing set ( 1 cup and 1 cage with tapered rollers )

- 1 (one) Upper bearing set ( 1 cup and 1 cage with tapered rollers )

- 1 (one) Oil seal for the output shaft.   ( Please confirm these diameters : Shaft dia 31,7 mm  bore dia 42,86 mm )

- 1 (one) Set of shims ( for adjusting the end play of the gear worm )

                They are 6 shims : 4 of 0,2 mm thickness, 1 of 0,1 mm and 1 of 0,05 mm )

- 2 (two) Needle roller bearings (B2016)  (  Please confirm this bearing size : shaft dia 31,7  bore dia 38,1 mm )

               Also, please inform us if you prefer brass bushings instead needle bearings.

- 1 (one) Gasket for the housing cover

 

The delivered cost via Fedex to Kentucky would be $460.  The price doesn't concern me considering all of the parts involved.  What concerns me is the financial terms.  They don't accept credit cards, paypal or any other of the normal methods of payment I'm used to.  The only method of payment accepted is through bank to bank transfer of funds.  Needless to say that concerns me.  I'm still doing research to determine if the CHS Ricardo Cavallero company is a valid company and any other checks that I can make.  

 

So my question to the forum is has anyone dealt with these guys before?  If so are they legit?!

 

Thanks!

 

Brad

1951 B3B

Richmond, Ky (formerly from Jefferson, Arkansas and Lincoln, Nebraska)

 

Edited March 27, 2019 by bkahler

[Plymouthy Adams]

I thought I had read that someone in your neck of the woods already rebuilds these boxes at an affordable rate.    Do a search on this forum, be sure you are on the main page and not within a thread and type GEMMER into the search engine.  Threads for parts, rebuilder and of course even substitute boxes will give you some good reading.  I also would be skeptical of ordering from these guys....they probably straight up legit company, but I can foresee a nightmare of issues should a order go missing or come in wrong for some reason.  Odds are it would get worked out but how much time/aggravation would be exhausted in doing so?

[bkahler]

You must be talking about Lares Corp. I just found their name using the search for Gemmer.  I'll go ahead and contact them today to see what they have to say.

 

Thanks!

 

Brad

1951 B3B

Richmond, Ky (formerly from Jefferson, Arkansas and Lincoln, Nebraska)

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

yes...I cannot say for certain that was the company....I was thinking more central US along the Missouri/bordering area...one of our members in the south has sent a few units to them and speaks highly of them....

Edited March 27, 2019 by Plymouthy Adams

[bkahler]

Well that sucks.  I had a reply all typed ready to send and the p15-d24.com site started an upgrade and threw away my reply!

 

In talking with Lares they indicated I could deal with any of the different company's with links from the website and might even save a little money but the gearbox would eventually be sent to them for rebuilding.  Per my discussion with Lares, the base price for rebuilding the gearbox would be $415 plus shipping both ways.  The base price only covers cleaning, painting, bearing and seal replacement  with a lube job and adjustment.  However if the worm and wheel are bad then the cost would jump about $500 for those parts.  I'm 99% certain my worm is bad because of the large areas that are galled and pitted.  My steering was extremely sloppy and rough so I can't picture them not needing to be replaced.  Oddly enough the bronze bushings for pinion shaft are nice and tight so I they don't need to be replaced.

 

Attached is a picture of the CHS kit.

 

Now I need to decide what to do.

 

Thanks,

 

Brad

1951 B3B

Richmond, Ky (formerly from Jefferson, Arkansas and Lincoln, Nebraska)

 

[wayfarer]

I have done business with other not-so-close companies that would/could only take wire transfers and never had an issue. And, like you, my only 'view' of them was on the web. Sometimes you just gotta take a chance. In the grand sceme, plenty of folks loose $500 on the roll of the die......now, if you don't have $500 to kiss goodbye...........

[bkahler]

2 hours ago, wayfarer said:

I have done business with other not-so-close companies that would/could only take wire transfers and never had an issue. And, like you, my only 'view' of them was on the web. Sometimes you just gotta take a chance. In the grand sceme, plenty of folks loose $500 on the roll of the die......now, if you don't have $500 to kiss goodbye...........

 

Earlier this morning, after having thought about it for a few days I contacted Ricardo and requested the paperwork to go ahead and make the purchase.  While throwing away $500 would not be something I want to do on a daily basis I agree with you that sometimes you just have to take a chance

 

I still need to supply him with a couple more dimensions to verify their parts kit is correct.  Once the purchase is made I'll post back here and let everyone know how it went.

 

Brad

 

[TFC]

Have you considered looking for another steering box, one in better shape?  I bought a 52 B3B at the beginning of last year, the steering box was in the same condition as yours, pitted/galled worm&sector. totally unusable.  Spent some time looking around, for parts and or rebuilders.  Came across the web site http://www.uneedapart.com/used-steering-boxes.php.   Long shot, but why not try it, filled out forms and in a couple of days heard back from a salvage yard in Arizona, Hidden Valley Auto Parts.  They said the box was clean and in good shape, think I paid $250 plus $75 for shipping.  Arrived "As advertised"  worm&sector perfect, only needed to replace the sector seal. 

 

 

 

 

[Frank Elder]

There are shops across the US that somehow build up or weld up crankshafts back to specs......I wonder if they could apply the same tech to the worm gear? Probably cost prohibitive.

[bkahler]

On 3/30/2019 at 8:00 AM, TFC said:

Have you considered looking for another steering box, one in better shape?  I bought a 52 B3B at the beginning of last year, the steering box was in the same condition as yours, pitted/galled worm&sector. totally unusable.  Spent some time looking around, for parts and or rebuilders.  Came across the web site http://www.uneedapart.com/used-steering-boxes.php.   Long shot, but why not try it, filled out forms and in a couple of days heard back from a salvage yard in Arizona, Hidden Valley Auto Parts.  They said the box was clean and in good shape, think I paid $250 plus $75 for shipping.  Arrived "As advertised"  worm&sector perfect, only needed to replace the sector seal. 

 

 

 

 

 

I've considered it and actually browsed ebay for a while but in the end it's a crap shoot as to whether or not a used box is worth the cost.  I'm going to go ahead and give CHS Ricardo Cavallero a try.  Worst case is I lose my money, best case is the kit turns out to be a nice deal.  I'll report back once the kit arrives.

 

Brad

 

Edited March 31, 2019 by bkahler

[bkahler]

On 3/30/2019 at 11:28 AM, Frank Elder said:

There are shops across the US that somehow build up or weld up crankshafts back to specs......I wonder if they could apply the same tech to the worm gear? Probably cost prohibitive.

 

I suppose anything is possible but looking at the worm it doesn't appear to be the same diameter through it's length.  I think it would be a real challenge to do a one of weld and regrind.  I can't imagine what the cost would be for such an endeavor!

 

Brad

 

[kencombs]

2 hours ago, bkahler said:

 

I suppose anything is possible but looking at the worm it doesn't appear to be the same diameter through it's length.  I think it would be a real challenge to do a one of weld and regrind.  I can't imagine what the cost would be for such an endeavor!

 

Brad

 

Yep that tapered worm requires very specialized equipment.  Or, a even more specialized program on a CNC machine.

[Frank Elder]

46 minutes ago, kencombs said:

Yep that tapered worm requires very specialized equipment.  Or, a even more specialized program on a CNC machine.

Or a 3D printer.....a new definition for a plastic worm...lol.

[BobB]

I would be very concerned about their payment terms.

 

Have my bank cut a certified check to them, yes.

 

Give them access to my bank account, never.

 

You could be out much more than the $500.

 

Unless you have a burner account that doesn’t have any other funds in it, I wouldn’t do it. I’d rather drive to their location and hand them cash.

 

Just my two cents. No part is worth that risk.

[kencombs]

5 minutes ago, BobB said:

I would be very concerned about their payment terms.

 

Have my bank cut a certified check to them, yes.

 

Give them access to my bank account, never.

 

You could be out much more than the $500.

 

Unless you have a burner account that doesn’t have any other funds in it, I wouldn’t do it. I’d rather drive to their location and hand them cash.

 

Just my two cents. No part is worth that risk.

Bank to bank transfers and a common method of business purchases in most parts of the world.  I've done a few for large purchases Europe.  They do NOT give the recipient access to your account.  You authorize the transfer to their account.  You have their info, they never see yours. Your bank moves the money on your authorization. 

[BobB]

Good

 

Guess I’ve just seen too many requests for my bank info from obvious scammers.

 

Thanks for setting me straight.

 

Bob

[bkahler]

There might be a fly in the ointment.  Ricardo sent me a list of dimensions to verify mainly pertaining to the sector shaft diameter.  The dimensions he sent do not match the dimensions of my sector.  Mine is 1.125" in diameter and he thought it should be 1.250" in diameter.  So it's possible they don't offer a kit for the B3B trucks.  

 

I should know tomorrow.

 

Brad

 

[wayfarer]

It is good that you can verify some of the dimensions before doing the deal. Keep us posted.

[bkahler]

It took two tries at the bank to get the wire transfer competed.  First go round I was missing some information from CHS.  Even after I got the information the bank still had issues trying to get all of the requested information into the format required by Argentina.  Needless to say it was an interesting process.  This was my first and hopefully last international wire transfer.

 

Now I get to see if I just threw away $500 or if the parts actually arrive.  

 

Stay tuned......

 

brad

 

[bkahler]

Just got news from CHS Ricardo Cavallero that the package has shipped and I should get a Fedex tracking number tomorrow.   

 

Stay tuned......

 

[bkahler]

I'm happy to report that I received the steering gearbox rebuild kit from CHS and the initial inspection shows the parts to be the correct size and type.  Now I need to find the time to do the actual rebuild.  What I'm dreading the most is pressing off the old worm and pressing on the new worm.  I've asked Ricardo if he has any pointers on how to do the job but haven't heard back as yet.  

 

The bottom line is I'm glad I went through with the purchase. 

 

Brad

 

[Merle Coggins]

Thoughts on the replacement of the worm on the shaft, based on experience with other press fit items. I have no experience with this exact type of job.

 

To get the old worm gear off you'd need to heat the gear quickly without getting too much heat into the shaft. Then it should come off rather easily. For reassembly, heat up the new piece in oil to around 300 degrees and freeze the shaft. When ready slide the frozen shaft into the hot gear. You'll have to work quickly and you'll have one shot to get it on or you'll have to press it.

[DJ194950]

Will alignment of the new replacement pressed gear on shaft have to match the original position (orientation )??

 

Is there one spot to fit the steer wheel to center??

 

I have no idea, reason for the Q. for application on this vehicle.  ?

 

DJ

[Matt Wilson]

I pressed a worm gear off a steering shaft and replaced it just using a hydraulic press.  I didn't heat it or cool the shaft or anything like that.  This was on my '49 Dodge Power Wagon.  The worm has an integral key, and shaft has a machined key way.  The first time I tried it, I had the key slightly misaligned from the key way, meaning it was rotated a few degrees and it created a sliver of a new key way on the shaft, resulting in the overall width of the key way being wider than it should be.  I didn't care much for that, so I got another shaft I had in my stock and tried it again....pressed the worm off the not-quite-right shaft and onto the other shaft.  This time, I was very careful and got it right. The gear on mine looks just like the gear in your photos, so yours may respond similarly.

 

Not sure if you have access to a press or not.  Maybe a gear or pulley puller could be made to work.  I would suggest not using the tapered piece of the puller inside the shaft, as that will probably tend to expand it and make it harder to get free of the gear.

[bkahler]

Thanks for the replies.  CHS did reply to my request for information and was kind enough to send me some information on worm replacement and the sector roller replacement.  Below is the written description for the roller removal:

 

Tips to replace the roller on a sector sector with roller.

 

1) Removing the used (worn) or old roller. For this there are 2 possible methods: a) Using an oxyacetylene flame torch, heat one end of the roller pin so that the end is heated to a malleable point, immediately after hit this end of the pin with a punch and a suitable holder in order to remove the pin. Attention !!! Do not heat the sector axis. b) With a bank boring machine and an integral HSS drill (approx dia 11 mm), mill a cone or center in one of the ends of the pin of the roller, in such a way that the riveted end thereof is weakened. After this hit this end of the roller pin with a punch and an suitable holder to remove the roller pin. NOTE: all these procedures must be carried out with the appropriate personal protection elements, such as safety glasses, gloves, etc.

 

2) Installing the new roller. Now with the sector shaft without the roller, proceed to clean it and evaluate if it is necessary to grind or polish its cylindrical parts where the bushings work. Also the internal flat faces of the head of the sector shaft must be inspecting in order to see if it is necessary to grind or polish and keeping its parallelism. With the sector shaft in good condition and clean, measure the width between plain surfaces of sector shaft head in order to adjust the thickness of the thrust washers (side spacers) in such a way that the total width "washer + roller + washer" can be placed on it sliding and without axial clearance. Both thrust washers must be the same thickness. NOTE: All our roller kits include 2 thrust washers (side spacers) approximately 0.1 mm thicker than the original ones. This allows adjustment according to the wear of the internal faces of the sector head. Once the roller assembly, washers and pin have been placed, the riveting or fixing of the pin-pin must be carried out on the sector axis. If you do not have the specific riveting machine (Press Type Spot Welding Machine), there are 2 possibilities: a) Fix it with a little welding point on each end of the roller pin or b) Heat and rivet one end at a time of the roller pin, with the same torch and punch that you used to remove it.

 

They also sent me a brief description and pictures show how they remove and replace the worm gear.  It seems to be a pretty straight forward approach.  

 

Our method to mount the worm on the steering shaft, is the following:

 -Use an hydraulic press that allows to place the length of the column.

-Re-condition and check the diameter of the shaft where the steering worm will be mounted. (Surface condition and dimension)

-Usually this diameter should measure 18.84 / 18.82 mm for our steering worms.

-Protect the thread of the steering wheel nut with a long nut.

  Very important :  In order to avoid the buckling of the shaft. we protect the shaft with a common gas pipe a little bigger in diameter but shorter in length.