Chrysler A161 Prototype Hemi

[HotRodTractor]

I feel like I have seen more pictures of the prototype hemi 6 that was based on our favorite Flathead. Please post them up! I'm a fan of early curiosities.

 

Also - didn't I recall that someone had either the original setup, or a reproduction of the setup at one point in time? Phillips Performance perhaps? It was a long time ago I remember reading that it existed, but I don't recall any pictures or other evidence other than I read it on the internet so it must be true.

 

 

 

Jason

[Andydodge]

1st pic of that I've ever seen.........I'll have 2 thanks, in Hemi orange please.........lol.....................andyd

[HotRodTractor]

28 minutes ago, Andydodge said:

1st pic of that I've ever seen.........I'll have 2 thanks, in Hemi orange please.........lol.....................andyd

 

I'd like mine Chrysler industrial red. Afterall it is Horsepower with a Pedigree! lol

 

[55 Fargo]

3 hours ago, HotRodTractor said:

I feel like I have seen more pictures of the prototype hemi 6 that was based on our favorite Flathead. Please post them up! I'm a fan of early curiosities.

 

Also - didn't I recall that someone had either the original setup, or a reproduction of the setup at one point in time? Phillips Performance perhaps? It was a long time ago I remember reading that it existed, but I don't recall any pictures or other evidence other than I read it on the internet so it must be true.

 

 

 

Jason

Any performance specs based on this prototype.

Tim Kingsbury mentioned this engine to me once upon a time...

[HotRodTractor]

2 hours ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

Any performance specs based on this prototype.

Tim Kingsbury mentioned this engine to me once upon a time...

 

I've only seen anecdotal performance specs that have likely been altered by time (history is written by the victors after all).

 

Same punch line as most things - more horsepower at lower compression levels, decrease in detonation,  even smoother idle, etc.... if it works as well as say the ARDUN Ford heads of the day then its a pretty good bang. The ARDUN setup advertised 175hp out of a 100HP base engine to put some more oomph under the hood of over the road trucks.

 

A 75hp gain on say a 120hp 265ci Chrysler would make quite the splash and I would think it would be quite modest for a setup like this with today's tuning techniques.

 

[55 Fargo]

Thanx HRT.

Think this evolved to the slant 6...

[Young Ed]

8 hours ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

Thanx HRT.

Think this evolved to the slant 6...

That hemi 6 was developed just after WWII and lead to the first hemi v8s.

[HotRodTractor]

This was the stepping stone that lead to the early hemi engines. There was also a V6 hemi concept drawn up, but I don't believe it was ever manufactured.

 

I also might have the development number wrong.... I have ran across conflicting information that i haven't been able to sort out. For testing purposes they developed all kinds of cool stuff. Such as the engine in the original post, they also had a dual overhead cam version, I found reference to an aluminum OHV head that had a flat face (not a hemi - or even much of if any type of a combustion chamber). That is what companies and and people do - they develop things. Sometimes they make one and done. Sometimes its evolutionary trying out different directions and paths.... and just like Darwin's theory.... only the fit survive. Perhaps that fit is cost, perhaps performance, perhaps weight, whatever it is.... new things get tried and tested and only the best for the task is developed further.

[HotRodTractor]

So was I imagining the other pictures I think I have seen? I seem to recall a 3/4 angle picture of this engine on a dyno - but if no one has it... then I must have been making it up....

[HotRodTractor]

Correction: This is the A221 experimental engine. Built in 1948

I now have a kind of crappy picture of the dual overhead cam inline 6 cylinder engine coded A173 - it is significantly different in construction than the engine pictured above. The carb and intake are on the driver's side of the engine with the distributor being in the back on top? of the head maybe.

[Plymouthy Adams]

if you look at that head you will see the geometry for the valve train would never work based on the location of the lifters.  It was the aircraft hemi engine that chrylser was working on that evolved into the hemi for the automobile as I recall the development.  I do not recall ever seeing a flathead hemi that was a running model.

[Loren]

I just got the book "Chrysler Engines 1922-1998" by Willem L. Weertman published by SAE from Amazon.

On page 125 there's the same photo of the A-221 from 1948 (but not as good quality as the one above).

The context in the book was of the experimentation done leading up to the HEMI V8, so the author didn't have much to say about it.

The only real information was "designed by Engine Design Department under Mel Carpentier."

I suppose it was a "One off" engine and knowing the domestic manufacturers it was very likely scrapped after a time.

There are other engines in that chapter including a single cylinder DOHC HEMI.

 

Hot Rodders have put better flowing heads on inline engines in the past. I remember a Buick 8 with heads from some V8 on it.

You'd think if it worked good we'd see more of that.... 

[Sniper]

On 3/7/2018 at 9:48 AM, HotRodTractor said:

There was also a V6 hemi concept drawn up

 

Allpar has a bit of info on this.

 

https://www.allpar.com/threads/the-1951-chrysler-3-6-liter-v6-hemi.229888/#post-1085223986

[HotRodTractor]

9 hours ago, Loren said:

I just got the book "Chrysler Engines 1922-1998" by Willem L. Weertman published by SAE from Amazon.

On page 125 there's the same photo of the A-221 from 1948 (but not as good quality as the one above).

The context in the book was of the experimentation done leading up to the HEMI V8, so the author didn't have much to say about it.

The only real information was "designed by Engine Design Department under Mel Carpentier."

I suppose it was a "One off" engine and knowing the domestic manufacturers it was very likely scrapped after a time.

There are other engines in that chapter including a single cylinder DOHC HEMI.

 

Hot Rodders have put better flowing heads on inline engines in the past. I remember a Buick 8 with heads from some V8 on it.

You'd think if it worked good we'd see more of that.... 

 

 

Yes - that book is how I verified the development number to A-221. I'm aware that it was an experimental engine - one of several that ultimately lead to the first hemi V8s being introduced.

Adding a hemi head to a flathead does work very well... its just not cheap. That is one reason why the Ardun conversions for Ford flatheads are so coveted. Or more recent and more on topic - the Edgy F-head for the stock engines the vehicles that have brought us all together. There are plenty of other examples in the early days of hot rodding of converting a flathead into an OHV or an F-head configuration - particularly on early 4 cylinders.... there is a lot of interesting and cool parts to be found. Several examples for the Ford flathead V8 can be viewed HERE

 

10 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

if you look at that head you will see the geometry for the valve train would never work based on the location of the lifters.  It was the aircraft hemi engine that chrylser was working on that evolved into the hemi for the automobile as I recall the development.  I do not recall ever seeing a flathead hemi that was a running model.

I'm going to disagree with you on that. I can't say for certain how this engine ran, but I do believe it did run. I've studied the photos hard - and have the start of the solid models as a proof of concept before I came to the conclusion that its not only possible, but its very doable. 

Experimental overhead cam on the left. Experimental push rod hemi on the right - granted - this image shows the lifters tilted to correct some geometry - but its not out of the realm of reality to make that happen. 
 

[Plymouthy Adams]

line drawing does not an exhaust noise make....?   I am not from Missouri but will have to take the Missouri stance on this topic 

 

IF this A161 was a success story and GIVEN that Chrysler ran the flathead in production till 1959 in cars...even later in commercial applications and military vehicles....why were there basically zero advances in design and engineering other than compression to allow for the better grade fuels in constant development and basically that tapered to no improvements after the development of the slant 6   

 

the line drawing above and the head pictured that is supposedly the a161 head ...the vertical bored small pushrod holes would not work comparing the two if these supposedly represent the same engine....

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Plymouthy Adams

[HotRodTractor]

24 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

line drawing does not an exhaust noise make....?   I am not from Missouri but will have to take the Missouri stance on this topic 

 

 

 

Fair enough. I'll do my best to make some exhaust noises in the future. lol 

[HotRodTractor]

31 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

IF this A161 was a success story and GIVEN that Chrysler ran the flathead in production till 1959 in cars...even later in commercial applications and military vehicles....why were there basically zero advances in design and engineering other than compression to allow for the better grade fuels in constant development and basically that tapered to no improvements after the development of the slant 6   

 

the line drawing above and the head pictured that is supposedly the a161 head ...the vertical bored small pushrod holes would not work comparing the two if these supposedly represent the same engine....

 

I think this has multiple reasons why it didn't take off, even if it was successful. The push was for V8 due to packaging size - ie shorter in length. The head above is significantly more complicated, but not more complicated than the V8 production heads that eventually came out.... but the block is also more complicated - it adds at least one more "hold" in a machining operation to angle the lifters - and that tooling is rather long and deep to get into that location in the block. Not unachievable, but not ideal for a production environment. These angled lifters also add complication in the cores used for casting. Its the difference between a prototype for testing, and actual implementation in production - lots of successful prototypes fail in that transition. 

Successful for a test engine might not be longevity. It could simply be efficiency, power curve, peak power, or any number of other test criteria. We don't know exactly why it was built, but we do know that it was built. You could be right - it might never have ran - but I swear I saw a picture of this engine on the dyno, but I haven't been able to locate that photo again. The search continues. 

[Loren]

Just for Entertainment

I'd like to mention that putting OHV heads on side valve engines started with one of the first engines with a removable head, the Model T Ford.

I am not ashamed to mention Ford here as with the exception of wheels and body the car was made by the Dodge Brothers until 1914.

A removable head and cylinders cast "enblock" were a huge advancement. The Ford/Dodge Brothers Model N R & S had cylinders cast in pairs with no head and attached to a separate crankcase. Since the Dodge Brothers made most of the car (and financed Ford) I figure they had more than a little input as to design. After all they had lots of skin in the game.

Back to the Model T

In 1916 Robert M. Roof created the first Over Head Valve conversion for the Ford. It had 16 valves ala Peugeot.

The exhaust came out of ports in the head while the intakes were in the block using all 6 ports.

It wasn't very successful as the valve guides leaked as the engine wore and it won't idle properly. When they ran they ran with considerable power.

There were two sets of push rods. One set of 8 running in the block valve guides and another set of 8 running in guides in the head acting on the rockers.

This was needed because of the intake ports being in the block running up to ports in the head and as you might imagine the inability to line everything up.

This head started a whole industry of "Speed Merchants" including the Chevrolet Brothers.

Back to the Chrysler

I doubt if the Engine Design Department built the engine with a thought to production. The tappet bores were put on an angle to get the push rods to the rockers. That would have been a big change for production tooling. The angle was about what the V8 had so the heads would be a good proof of concept. The HEMI 6 was nice but not practical as it could not be enlarged to the sizes envisioned for the future and straight 8s were out of fashion.

 

[HotRodTractor]

Roof also made 16v conversion heads for 4 cylinder Dodge engines as well. 

Others made more Dodge OHV conversions as well. Morton and Brett comes to mind. Probably others. 

[Sniper]

5 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

the line drawing above and the head pictured that is supposedly the a161 head ...the vertical bored small pushrod holes would not work comparing the two if these supposedly represent the same engine....

 

On a stock block flathead I'd agree, but the cam looks to be kicked out farther and I bet the in block ports are not there either, just passageways for the pushrods. 

 

Fitting a Hemi head on a stock block would be doable even so.  Let's say the intake is on the driver side, exhaust on the pass side, same pushrod angle as the flathead setup.  Cam in block, pushrods for the intake act directly on the intake rocker with a secondary rocker on the same shaft that acts on a horizontal pushrod and then the exhaust rocker.  That sort of setup is already in a limited production head for the BBC.

 

http://www.valleyhead.com/thunder.html

[Marcel Backs]

Henry was always grumpy so the Dodge bros left. Furd designs did not advance much after that until the flathead V8 and finally hydraulic brakes in 39. Dodges were a superior car throughout. Go figure! Tell a blue oval fan this and watch them climb a tree! lol. 

[Loren]

2 hours ago, Marcel Backs said:

Henry was always grumpy so the Dodge bros left. Furd designs did not advance much after that until the flathead V8 and finally hydraulic brakes in 39. Dodges were a superior car throughout. Go figure! Tell a blue oval fan this and watch them climb a tree! lol. 

 

There is no question the Dodge Brothers MADE the Ford Motor Company. The history is all too clear if you want to take a look at it. Henry Ford was convinced he was the smartest guy in the room and he was as stubborn as hell. A tea totaler he used to break into Edsel's house and smash the contents of his liquor cabinet. The Dodge Brothers both drank a little too much and got into trouble from time to time, so there was that. Mostly they parted ways when Henry refused to pay their dividends. The Dodges sued and won. I've often thought Ford kept the Model T so long because the Dodges weren't around to design the Model A. Henry Ford it seems was not the great visionary or engineer the propaganda makes him out to be. He had a lot of help along the way and buying out his stockholders was a big mistake of his. Having other opinions expressed in an organization keeps things on track. Walter P. Chrysler of all the automotive pioneers had that figured out. He found the best men, then trusted their work and the results speak for themselves.

 

Henry's well known antisemitism brought him an embarrassing moment which he richly deserved.

He sued a newspaper for slandering him. That brought on a trial during which he was called as a witness. He was asked very simple questions about American history and was found to be astonishingly ignorant once in the witness box. He couldn't get away, he had to answer the questions as best as he could. The lawyers really brought out his true colors and made him squirm. Finally when it was over the jury found that he had been slandered.....and awarded him $5 in damages. Needless to say he never sued anyone again. The whole experience should have humbled him but it didn't.

I try to understand where his personality faults came from. I think he was a guy who was not prepared for his success and it got the better of him. On a visit to the Henry Ford Museum I came upon a truly massive double acting twin cylinder steam engine/generator from the power plant at the Highland park Ford factory. This thing was impressively huge! To look out over it and imagine I was Henry Ford and this was my machine gave one a sense of power. Then I read the information card next to it. This incredible machine was only one of EIGHT in the plant and the one Henry saved. Then I understood his megalomania. Most of the country lived in houses with dirt floors and no indoor plumbing when this generator first ran. It had to give him the impression he was king of the world. If Ford had been run by Walter Chrysler there would have been no General Motors or any other competition for that matter. Ford at one time made more cars than all the other manufacturers combined. Chrysler's management style I believe could have kept that going forever. Just my humble opinion.

[greg g]

Seems to me any advances at getting fuel in and squeezed to perfection would have been mitigated by what seems a highly contrived and overly restrictive exhaust manifold.  Based n the chassis design, running a freeer flowing system would have run afoul of all that bothersome stuff under the driver's floor in left drive cars.

[HotRodTractor]

1 hour ago, greg g said:

Seems to me any advances at getting fuel in and squeezed to perfection would have been mitigated by what seems a highly contrived and overly restrictive exhaust manifold.  Based n the chassis design, running a freeer flowing system would have run afoul of all that bothersome stuff under the driver's floor in left drive cars.

That could be easily mitigated by having the intake on the left and the exhaust on the right. Not to discount the idea of simply running the exhaust down and crossing under the oil pan to travel down the right side of the vehicle to miss all of that troublesome stuff found on the left in a left drive car. 

I suspect that some of the stuff that you see in the pictures above was done specifically for road testing. I have seen blurbs that state that inline 6 engines equipped with a hemi heads were used in road tests in cars (maybe trucks too). To me the above candidate seems like a likely choice for such a test. Its a bolt in for a test car - it has manifold heat, exhaust that could hook up with existing exhaust, gas line hookups in the same place, wiring connections all in the same basic locations, etc... While not perfect for overall performance potential, pretty solid for a road test to show significant improvements over existing offerings. This is all pure speculation on my part without evidence to back it up. I'd like to find that evidence. Its certainly understandable that they would want to do real world road tests to prove out a new direction for their engine development teams. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

if ever a running model I doubt it ever got further than Chrysler's proving grounds.....if and when such test donkeys when released to the public for general testing there is always a few that got away....while they did not breed and proliferate there would be evidence of this engine still in private hands I would suspect.  They had some turbine cars get away that was by law destined for destruction on x drop dead date and these were in the neighborhood of 50 examples.   Still way too much conflicting data on the internet in assuming this or that...that paper drawing shows a redesigned/machine block....Allpar states only a head mod...the cast head picture of the head bolts show they did not use but the two going into the exhaust port of the block....the cooling passages would have to be sealed...of the remaining 5 non used bolts...sealant is an easy work around on this...I can 'allow' you a prototype pass but not a OTR beast of burden powerplant Chrysler is famous for producing....I do not think if this was such a success Chrysler would not have phased it into production...V8 power in a inline six, continued casting of current blocks with no change in machining, would have set Ford and GM back a decade of R&D to catch up.....forgive me if I just accept a cup of coffee and slice of apple pie from this smorgasbord. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Plymouthy Adams