Flathead 6 for 1933 Dodge to drive Peking to Paris

[Patrick De]

Hi, 

I have a 1933 Dodge six roadster with a lightweight T.J. Richards body with the intention to drive and finish the 2019 Peking to Paris endurance rally.  The actual engine is worn and underpowered for this job, so I'm looking for a later, more powerful and reliable flathead 6.

As with this T.J.R. body, there is place enough to put in the 25" long block without big modifications. 

Is there a big difference in power and in technical setup between a 230 and 251, apart from the cu inches? 

Can somebody tell me where I can find a good post war long block? Here in Europe I can only find T214 engines and very few results on Ebay  

Thanks in advance,

Kind regards, 
Patrick.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Patrick De
too much blablabla and too much questions apperently

[Bryan]

You're probably going to have a hard time getting comments without more information. I don't have a clue (any knowledge) about the Peking to Paris Rally and the condition of roads, speeds, rules on allowable engines, etc.   If the roads are so bad you can only do 45 mph most of the way, high rpm and HP won't help. Near major Chinese cities the roads are developed, in Europe the same, but areas in between who knows?   If the rules allow any motor, why not put in something newer that is reliable and you can get parts for?   More info required.

[Andydodge]

Patrick....nice Oz built car............shame to convert it to LHD but I do understand the reasoning.........a 250/251 would probably be the easiest to find, whilst the Edgy head would be nice I'd suggest for simplicitys sake I'd go with milling some off the stock iron head, a twin carb intake or 2 barrel carby on the stock intake and 2-2.5" low restriction exhaust.........the T5 adaptor should be available, also check Don Coatneys posts and thread regarding his installing of a 250 in his 1948 Plymouth, it won't be directly applicable but should give you some ideas etc...............regards from Australia..Andy Douglas  

[Patrick De]

7 hours ago, Bryan said:

You're probably going to have a hard time getting comments without more information. I don't have a clue (any knowledge) about the Peking to Paris Rally and the condition of roads, speeds, rules on allowable engines, etc.   If the roads are so bad you can only do 45 mph most of the way, high rpm and HP won't help. Near major Chinese cities the roads are developed, in Europe the same, but areas in between who knows?   If the rules allow any motor, why not put in something newer that is reliable and you can get parts for?   More info required.

Hi Bryan, thanks for the advise! The rules don't allow any motor, it has to be the same type of engine. Improving it is allowed in order to 'race' about 7 to 9 hours a day. I'm looking for torque and HP at low rpm. My biggest problem is where to find a good engine. Doesn't need to be overhauled as we want to do it ourselves. 

[Patrick De]

8 hours ago, Andydodge said:

Patrick....nice Oz built car............shame to convert it to LHD but I do understand the reasoning.........a 250/251 would probably be the easiest to find, whilst the Edgy head would be nice I'd suggest for simplicitys sake I'd go with milling some off the stock iron head, a twin carb intake or 2 barrel carby on the stock intake and 2-2.5" low restriction exhaust.........the T5 adaptor should be available, also check Don Coatneys posts and thread regarding his installing of a 250 in his 1948 Plymouth, it won't be directly applicable but should give you some ideas etc...............regards from Australia..Andy Douglas  

Thanks Andy.

Any idea where I can find a good block and steeringbox? 

Regards, Patrick

[Bryan]

If you are expecting low quality gas then I wouldn't raise compression too high. Mill enough to get the head flat. There are charts that compare compression ratio with coolant temperature vs gas octane.   Or you could carry some kind of octane booster gas additive with you.

[knuckleharley]

Forget the high compression. It is not compatible with the crap gas you are likely to buy in remote areas. Also,you won't need more horsepower or torque than a well-build 230-265 will provide you with the proper gearing. I am GUESSING there will be very few,if any,areas where you will be able to reach speeds higher than 75 MPH,especially is a antique car long distance race over a lot of poor roads that is restricted to antique cars. If you are allowed to adapt a modern 5 speed or a period 3 speed with overdrive transmission,pick a final drive gear ratio that will allow you to pull the steepest grades at the maximum speeds you are likely to be able to safely drive up them,and you will be good to go. Factor in the overdrive for the top speed on the flat and improved roads you will drive,as well as the engine torque and hp to make sure you will have enough power to pull a final gear ratio in overdrive at those RPM's. Here is where you need to do some serious research as to cam lift and duration,as well as compression ratios. As well as some serious research into the quality,composition,and octane ratings of the gas you will be using. If it is allowable according to the rules,take along a LOT of octane booster  and gas treatment for water,as well as inline gas filters.

I can't think of anyone better to ask about these questions that the these guys. If they don't know the answers to any questions you might have about building a flat 6 Mopar for competition,I don't know who would be. Yeah,they race flat 4's,but all flathead inline engines have the same limitations and potential capabilities.  BTW,I have no idea why this is all underlined,and it pisses me off.

If there are specific issues they can't help you with,I am sure they will know who to tell you to contact.

http://www.fastfourspecial.com/the-story.html

If they don't respond,look at the list of participants of this annual American road race and email the ones you see who drive the old  Dodges  and Plymouths. Yeah,the roads and probably the gas quality is better,but it's still a long-distance reliabality  race using antique cars.

http://www.greatrace.com/history

 

Good luck to you!

Edited November 6, 2017 by knuckleharley

[55 Fargo]

Here are the people to contact with all your engine questions.

on this forum PM timkingsbury and he can answer all of your questions and refer you to George Asche the Mopar flathead King.

Also talk with bamfordsgarage he drove his flathead powered 47 Dodge all over North America including a late winter trek to the pacific northwest and the arctic ocean.

I look forward to your mission...

Edited November 6, 2017 by 55 Fargo Spitfire

[greg g]

According to a couple sources you engine is a 201 with about 5 to 1 compression ratio.  If you can't find a 251/265, a later 230 would be a good choice.  I would build it as close to stock as possible for reliability.  I have a 56 230 engine in my 46. The factory rated this engine at 125 HP at the flywheel.  Mine is bored .030 over, stock cam, dual carbs, and .040 milled from the head, and .010 off the block. This gives me just under 8 to 1 compression which runs fine on 87 octain.  But the point of carrying octain booster is valid even at that level. Engine rotating parts were balanced, fly wheel lightened, I run two inch inside diameter single exhaust through a dynomax turbo flow muffler.  This setup puts 127 HP to the rear wheels at 3280 rpm which gives me 100 kph road speed through a 4.1 to 1 rear end.  For simplicity on the road, I might go with a single 2 bbl carb rather than the dual set up.  I have nearly 40,000 miles on his set up with no issues. Probably half of those miles on trips of 700 miles or more.

My car was used by a fellow for his job as a farm equipment manufacturers representative.  He used the car to visit farms in central Pennsylvania, after WW II.  So much of its live wason dirt and gravel roads. When I got the car it had some interesting equipment added.  The oil pan still retains a 1/4 inch thick plate rock guard brazed onto it.  I removed similar plates that were bolted on to protect the muffler and differential.  I think you should give similar items some consideration.  I would also raise the car two inches or so by adding a couple of leaves to the springs or through custom shackles.  Would also think of running light truck tires rather than passenger rated tires. For simplicity sake you could go with the stock trans with Overdrive.  Where you are you could look at adding a Laycock de Normanville "J" OD from a Volvo, or similar by a custom mount and drive shaft modification.  This would give you low speed flexibility and relaxed cruise when available.

Nice looking car.  Great adventure.  Good luck.

[greg g]

 Sent you a PM.

[Andydodge]

Patrick, as for finding an engine obviously there is the US but freight costs will be an issue...............have you thought about checking the UK and Europe in general looking for a light truck engine from a Fargo or possibly Dodge, also check farm implement, fork lift & the like, when I had the 41 Plymouth with its 201 engine I wanted to install a 230 which are not common here in Oz and ended up finding a 230 which was an Industrial engine from a Sydney airport tug.............regarding the steering box do you have to use a 1933 LHD box?, or can you substitute a later LHD box and adapt the column if it has to be used to the later box...........the USA/Canada would be the place to find a LHD 1933 box, trouble is tho' that early steering boxes will generally need rebuilding and worm & rollers are hard to find............regards, andyd         

[DonPal]

I had a 33 Plymouth Convertible from 1973 to 2012 with stock flathead 6 and 38 Desoto overdrive. I drove it 110,000 miles frequently at 60 mph (100 kmh) on the flat roads.

I also have a 1935 Dodge Pickup (early suicide door model) with a 1959 Plymouth 230 flathead 6 and a T5 Overdrive transmission). It will do 70 mph on the flat roads. I have driven it 95,000 miles since 1990. The 35 Dodge pickup has a front end identical to your 33 Dodge  including the engine compartment size.

I looked into the long block flathead 6 and it wouldn't fit without cutting the firewall and moving the frame cross member consequently I would recommend that you bore a 230 before going to the long block. The stock compression ratio is a little over 8 and so after you rebuild it expect something slightly higher.......suggest staying in that range to use the gas with octanes around 86 or so. The five speed T5 transmission is an easy install and will give you not only overdrive but also the extra gears to keep the engine in the rpm range for best torque when pulling on hills. 

[knuckleharley]

13 minutes ago, Andydodge said:

Patrick, as for finding an engine obviously there is the US but freight costs will be an issue...............have you thought about checking the UK and Europe in general looking for a light truck engine from a Fargo or possibly Dodge, also check farm implement, fork lift & the like, when I had the 41 Plymouth with its 201 engine I wanted to install a 230 which are not common here in Oz and ended up finding a 230 which was an Industrial engine from a Sydney airport tug.............regarding the steering box do you have to use a 1933 LHD box?, or can you substitute a later LHD box and adapt the column if it has to be used to the later box...........the USA/Canada would be the place to find a LHD 1933 box, trouble is tho' that early steering boxes will generally need rebuilding and worm & rollers are hard to find............regards, andyd         

You should also check around for any place in Europe that furnishes parts for the restoration of WW-2 US Military vehicles. Most of the 3/4 ton US Military trucks right up to the 1970's used the 230 Dodge flat 6 engine,and I have been told some of the tanks used the 265 6 cylinder industrial Chrysler engine.

[greg g]

SteeringSteering gear contact

https://www.redheadsteeringgears.com

[TodFitch]

I don't know how much this event is like a race or rally, that is how much performance you really need from the engine/transmission/rear axle ratios, etc. But it seems that reliability might be a more important aspect than outright speed or acceleration.

It is my understanding that the '33 Dodge and '33 Plymouth are very similar mechanically. Really on differing in having a higher displacement version of the engine.  The '33 through '41 engines share the same basic set of bearings, pistons, etc. While the '35 and up engines have some more refinement in the cooling system any of them, properly rebuilt, should be able to manage the trip. Later engines will have more power but not necessarily more readily available internal parts.

If using the original ball and trunnion equipped driveshaft, I'd trust good leather boots more than rubber ones. Though I've heard there is now a supplier of newly manufactured rubber boots for at least the 1950s version and if those are available then rubber may be okay. If the boots go bad the u-joints can wear quite rapidly. Even if keeping the original transmission and rear end it might be safer to have a modern driveshaft made up.

Not sure if the '33 Dodge used a B&B carburetor. But if it did, the original '33 version of that is a weak link too. A later carb would be on my "must list" if I were a long way from a good parts supplier.

If keeping the stock, or something close to stock, on the suspension you will find the drag link on the '33 Plymouth and '33 Dodge to be a bit marginal. Rare Parts in Stockton, California makes a replacement that has quite a bit more beef than the original thin walled tubing design.

The steering box on the Plymouth, and also I believe on the Dodge, is a worm and sector. No worm and rollers in it. I've not had troubles with mine. Once adjusted it seems to stay pretty well adjusted. Loose ball joints and dangerously worn drag link were the main culprits in the steering system of my car.

The "Silent-U" spring shackles can wear out quite rapidly if not kept properly lubricated. Start with them newly refurbished and keep them greased and they should be okay.

If the Dodge is fitted with 17" wheels, I'd seriously consider getting some 16" replacements: There are limited tire choices for the 17" rim and my experience has been that current production from collector car tire manufacturers have horrible durability. Your choice in tires is much larger for the 16" wheels and you may have better luck getting durable tires. Replacing tires in the middle of your trip is not something I'd be wanting to plan on.

[Bryan]

If you have an engine with a draft tube (the thing to the left of your distributor) you might want to go with a PCV conversion instead.  I think I read that a closed PCV system will have less dirt get in the engine.

[Merle Coggins]

52 minutes ago, Bryan said:

If you have an engine with a draft tube (the thing to the left of your distributor) you might want to go with a PCV conversion instead.  I think I read that a closed PCV system will have less dirt get in the engine.

The pipe to the left of the distributor is NOT the draft tube. That is the oil fill pipe, and crankcase breather. The draft tube is on the other side of the engine near the rear. It connects into the valve tappet area and hangs down into the air flow under the car to draw crankcase vapors out of the engine. Air is then drawn in through the crankcase breather filter at the top of the oil fill pipe.

[MarkAubuchon]

Its already been suggested  Call George Asche.  I know he built transmission for the this trip. In fact I think there was a story in the Plymouth Owners Magazine.  I think you can have a motor built locally, but George knows how to make the tranny bullet proof.  I heard if you think it will break it will, preventive skid pans. heavy duty shocks etc.

[greg g]

Hey Mark, 

Keep you ears open for a long block for this fellow.  

[Plymouthy Adams]

I read it to be quite the adventure and I bet you glad you signed up early...two years out and all the allocated slots have been filled for the 2019 run.  

[Plymouthy Adams]

Not to steal a mans thunder, but this link was interesting read on the Peking to Paris site....

http://www.endurorally.com/pages/trans-america-2018

[greg g]

Might be working for the organizers on that one.  Thought about competing but couldn't get that worked out.

[Plymouthy Adams]

I would guess just working out the logistics for the run would be intense not to mention the prep of the vehicle and putting the cost of the loop itself meals, lodging and other incidental costs.  I cannot seem to find time to run out of town for a day trip these days let alone such an adventure as this no matter how exciting it would be.

[Bryan]

4 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

Not to steal a mans thunder, but this link was interesting read on the Peking to Paris site....

http://www.endurorally.com/pages/trans-america-2018

Holy S..!  Did y'all see the link for the PtoP rally at the bottom of the page?  Driving through creeks and pastures. Knew the roads would be poor but....

[MarkAubuchon]

I have a long block 251 if its needed.  Think the freight would be pretty steep.