New to the forum / 1938 Chrysler rear drum hub repair?

[Royal C18]

Hi,

    Started fixing up my 1938 Chrysler C18 after sitting for about 3 years. I started redoing the complete braking system and seals  

 

when I found both rear drum hubs badly grooved by cheap hard aftermarket seals. The scores are deep enough to were the new  

 

seals won't seal. When I removed the drums the shoes were covered in rear end oil! So I thought a seal change would take care of it, boy was I wrong!!!  

 

I was going to use a speed sleeve, but found the outside of the hub has a slight taper (cone shape) instead of being an equal diameter cylinder.

 

It starts at 2.00" tapers to 2.03" then to 2.09" to the widest 2.13". 

 

I was wondering if anyone has repaired this type of hub before or may know where I could get it done. I have looked for hubs, hub and drum assemblies to no avail!!!

 

 But did find Front & Rear NOS hub and drum assemblies for my '40 Plymouth. P10 though.  Snatched 

those up!!  

 

I wished the Chrysler was as easy!!!!

 

So any thoughts, suggestions, ideas, places to take or send,  please throw them my way!!! I want to get this car back on the road were it belongs!!!

 

Thanks!!!!!!!!

[greg g]

might be more effective less expensive to just swap out the rear end for something more modern.  Mopar B body, ford ranger explorer early Jeep cherokee are a few prospects.

[Merle Coggins]

Unless the axles changed from '38 to the '40's and later I am curious where a seal would ride on the brake drum hub? I'm familiar with the wheel seals on the axle shafts. And there are 2 seals per side. One that keeps the axle oil in the axle housing, and one that keeps the dust/dirt out of the, grease packed, wheel bearing. Either way they both seal against the axle shaft.

 

Can you post some pictures of that you have?

 

Merle

[Plymouthy Adams]

_{I read this entry about 4 times and failed to grasp just how a seal is cutting the hub also.....a picture would be in order about now...something is not being conveyed to the audience I am thinking}

[Dodgeb4ya]

Here is a picture of this common early Mopar rear drum outer grease seal set up.... to repair the seal worn tapered drum hub it would have to be re-machined....

There is also the inner oil seal behind the bearings

Glad I don't have to deal too much with this style of outer seal!

[Merle Coggins]

Oh. That IS different. Although it still appears that the oil seal in inside the wheel bearing like the later ones. So if he has axle oil in the brakes it's likely the inner seal is bad as well.

[Royal C18]

Thanks for the responses!!  

 

Yes it is the outer grease seal. I already replaced the inner oil seals which appeared original and almost non existent!! The grease seal lip was hard as a rock. Like hard petrified rubber!! So it wore a nice groove! 

 

 I don't want to swap out the rear, I'd like to keep it as original as possible!!  

 

If machining is the only route does any one know who can do it. I was thinking if they could run a weld bead then machine it to specs on a lathe!

 

Thanks again!!!

[Plymouthy Adams]

yes...different....a question if you will indulge me..is this an item you can easily upgrade to the later style...say backing plate swap?  might be easier than trying to find NOS drums

[desoto1939]

It sounds as if the previous owner had put in the extra  axle oil seal that mounted behind the outer oil seal and this was just held in place by the outer oil seal. The outer oil seal is bolted to the backing plate and the small floating seal had to be tight onthe backing plate.  So it sould as if this trifles aftermarket oils seal dropped out of position and then scored the alxle shaft.  Currently I do not have the truflex seals on my 39 Desoto which is the same as your 38 Chrysler.  I think if you just put in new inner oil seals you should not have the oil running out of the end of the axle.  ALso did the previous owner ever over pack the roller bearing via the small nut that is on the axle housing. this nut is removed and you just push in a small amount of bearing greas and you DO NOT use a grease gun because this will push greas out the end of the axle on the brakes..

 

I have pictures of the proper outer oil seals and the trifles inner seals. 

 

Write to Me Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[Royal C18]

I found out that the same grease seal was used on many models and years so the hub outside diameter is the same on them, but it is the axle shaft diameter that changes model to model, year to year. So the hubs even though they look the same won't fit. My '40 Plymouth uses the same seal, but the axle is different in diameter!!!  I can find front NOS hub and drums, no rear! Even the '38 Chrysler C19 and C20 are different even though they are built on the same platform. The axles are larger diameter!!  I have explored all different avenues before coming here. This is so frustrating, I am so close to getting her back on the road!! Everything else is done for the exception of the interior which I will do when she is driving!!! 

Thanks for all the input.

[Merle Coggins]

A good machine shop should be able to weld it up and cut it down again, or cut it straight and build a sleeve to press over the top. It may be time to search your area for quality machine shops that can do the job.

[Royal C18]

The grease seals were visually the same as the OEM, but they were stamped made in Mexico! The lip was hard as a rock. I tried pushing on them and no give!! They fit real tight. My new NOS seals that I soaked in oil for over a week are nice and pliable and fit good until the groove, were it just then moves around freely, too freely!! I know they never greased them or hadn't greased them for a real long time. The plugs were caked with years of dirt and grime and were a pain to take out to clean the hole and plugs! The bearings were oil soaked and washed the grease off!! I had to replace one of the bearings and race due to sever pitting!! I know there is no pressure exerted on the seal from the grease, yet when it softens from heat it may ooze out a little!! Some one said to try JB weld, but that doesn't sound like it would work!!

[desoto1939]

Royal C18  can you take some pictures of the axle so we can see what is happening. Pictures help the group understand what you are trying to explain.

 

Rich HArtung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[Royal C18]

Yes, I will take some pics and post!!

[jcmiller]

I believe this is the type of groove he is talking about.

[Royal C18]

Yep that's it!!! But see how your hub shaft seems evenly cylindrical top to bottom. Mine is tapered from the top 2.00" to 2.13" at the bottom. Yours looks like it would take a speed sleeve perfectly!! Mine not so lucky!! Now if I could find a machine shop to weld a bead and machine it to specs. Or I have a friend that is a retired aero space machinist with a lathe in his garage he could do it, but he doesn't weld though!!! Maybe I can find a welding shop!!! Looks like the way to go unless by some miracle I find NOS ones!!!

 

Thanks guys!!!!!

[Royal C18]

jcmiller what is the outside diameter of your hub??

[jcmiller]

Mine has a slight taper too.  I considered having it welded and machined, as you are now.  A fellow Plymouth owner that I trust thought the heat from welding might damage the hub and didn't think grease leaking through was going to be an issue.  So I didn't repair it.

 

I don't know the diameter and it's back on the car.

Edited November 6, 2015 by jcmiller

[RobertKB]

I also own a '38 Chrysler Royal. I replaced all inner and outer seals. The rear drums were OK so I was lucky. I do have some 11" drums but they are from a later model. I will check to see if they might work. Your Chrysler should have 11" inch drums unlike other Mopar makes that had 10". Maybe PM me and we can go from there.

[P15-D24]

Your existing drum is useable. If you can't find a speed sleeve that fits (a good machinist should be able to help) then braze the grove to fill and turn it back down to correct size. Brazing is at a lower temp than welding so you should have to worry about warping anything.  This was the recommended process for repair before speed sleeves. A quick google search shows tampered sleeves are available. 

[Royal C18]

Thanks guys!!

 

RobertKB do you know what Chrysler they are from?? I have a 1942 brake part interchange book. I could see if they would work. And yes they are 11" X 2". Thanks!!!

 

P15-D24 I wanted to use a sleeve would have been the fastest and cheapest way, but since it is tapered(seems like mine is the only one) the sleeve would not work. It has to be at least the same diameter down the hub for at least a 1/2". Mine is at 2.09 at that point starting at 2.00" at the top. I never thought of braze welding it. Thanks for the idea on that!!!!!!! 

[jcmiller]

To this day, I still have a hard time believing that the seal caused that perfectly formed groove in the hub.  Royal, the 42's are tapered too, even though you can't see it in the photo.  That's also why I considered welding.  Robert's post reminded me that someone suggested brazing when I was looking into it.  I called a couple shops and they didn't do that, but I didn't look very hard.  It also seemed like the hub was going to have to be removed from the drum in order to turn it back into shape after adding metal.

[Andydodge]

Many yrs ago I had a problem with my rear disc adaption setup on my 1962 Oz Chrysler Royal rear axle.......an outer bearing race had cracked, spun in the axle housing and gently "machined" the housing about 20-30 thou oversize, ........consequently when a new bearing race was installed in the housing the race OD was too small..........not wanting to replace the whole rear end and custom adapted rear disc setup I found a place that was able to "metal spray" the outside of the bearing race to a specific amount, again, I think it was 20 or 30 thou, enough anyway to increase the outer size of the bearing race to enable it to be a proper press fit.............I wonder whether this "metal spray" procedure might be worth asking about in this case...........I'd be checking with engineering shops that do crankshaft repairs, rebuilds and stroking as the work they do on a crankshaft journal is essentially the same as whats needed here............anyway I trust you have some success.........this is a good thread in that we'll all learn something............regards, Andy Douglas      

[JD luxury liner]

your speedy sleeve is perfect idea, just have your friend with the lathe trim off the taper, then purchase correct sleeve.  

[deathbound]

Would the hub from a more readily available Plymouth or Dodge work? Separate your hub and drum and do the same with the replacement, press some studs in the replacement hub & re-use your drum. I'm not familiar with the Chrysler rear ends, so this may not be an option.