pflaming Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) Jeff, I fully buy into the idea that an older vehicle is a personal build and the range is from bolt correct to personalization for many reasons from 10' paint to patina, whatever that means. What I am doing is somewhat controversial but to me the history of the truck 'trumps' all other ideas, as good as they are. Regarding the tight quarters for the starter, I have sufficient room as shown. It was not an easy task to put the Cherokee M/C and line pressure valve where I have it, but as applied, it does not obstruct the removal of the starter. Proper location of the oil filter, now missing will maintain that. Regarding foot pedals, that is relative to the length of our leg and the size of our feet. I am detailing my cab, working on the electrical and the carper, pedals. I have my clutch pedal low, it is used more that the brake, but then I always double clutch to shift down to slow or stop, that saves the brakes and I am then in the proper gear when the road clears. Edited May 26, 2018 by pflaming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pflaming Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) I duplicated the above post, cancel attempt failed. Edited October 28, 2015 by pflaming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted October 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 Well I put most of this back together when the body was off the chassis. I didn't much like the location of the M/C at the time.......and I like it even less now. Also the starter motor went on before the oil filter canister was in place. I just put it back on exactly where it was and didn't think much about it. Now that I have had a session with it ....it will get modified. There is plenty of room to re-engineer these items so why not make it easier to work on in the future? I own a lot of old equipment and machinery....and I can't think of one thing that I have not made some sort of modification on at some point. Just my nature. I have tried as much as is possible to put this truck together in such a manner that most repairs can be handled on the roadside or in my little garage. If I have to call a tow truck or put it up on a hoist then I figure I haven't done a very good job. At least that is my way of looking at it. Jeff 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBNeal Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 about a year ago, I inherited another basket case, this time in the form of a '98 Subaru Outback with a blown head gasket & a lot of original rubber that was rotting. I put a lot of work into that car, and now it can be driven anywhere comfortably. But what I learned about that compact design is that working on that stuffed engine compartment can only be done if ya imagine ya are peeling an onion, cuz that's purty much how most everything has to be worked on: by removing items in a sequence to gain access. I didn't think it was possible, but the heads on that Subaru can be removed with the engine in the car...it can be done only after certain items are removed, and then the heads can only be removed from the car in a certain way (a lot of salty language sorta helps). I have removed the starters from the '48 & '49 more than once, and the '48 has the slot cut into the bolt heads to speed things up. I scoffed at the idea, but removing the floorboards is the easiest & fastest way to pull the starter. I think the last time I did this, it took about 5 minutes to pull the floorboards, then less than 10 minutes to pull the starter out from inside the cab. Of course I'm kindofa contortionist, so I can wiggle in & out of the cab floor fairly quickly. I don't know if this would help with a modified master cylinder setup, but floorboard removal for service is one of the most helpful things I have learned from this forum 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1950 Special Deluxe Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 I can relate. I just changed the spark plugs in my son's 2001 Legacy. I had to remove the air induction and the windshield washer fluid resovoir to gain access. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkrider Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 All this discussion has me thinking about things on my truck as well...I cant see it being difficult to replace the stock oil filter canister set up with a remote mounted filter. It would simply be a matter of getting barbed fittings that will thread into the block in place of the hard lines...which if im not mistaken one of those lines pulls from the same common galley that goes through the block correct? And secondly what is the benefit of running the Jeep M/C? Would i gain anything with running one on a larger truck like my 1 ton? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pflaming Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) The jeep M/C is a dual cylinder unit. It's a safety item, one for the front, one for the rear. Othe models will work as well, but the size and mechanical action makes it a good choice. It does require a mounting adaptor. I got mine from a local auto salvage yard for $30.00, which included the proportioning valve. For your one ton, I would. Edited October 29, 2015 by pflaming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted October 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) The Grand Cherokee M/C was added when I swapped in the rear axle from one with disc brakes. My truck has 4 wheel disc brakes. The set up works well I just do not like the location of the M/C from an access standpoint......or the location and action of the brake pedal. The point Mr. Neal brings up about how you have to remove parts to get to other parts on modern cars is one of my pet peeves. And I am no longer a contortionist. If I can make a few carefully thought out alterations and eliminate some of this then I will. I care much less for originality than I do for function and ease of maintenance. Because this truck is my primary transportation it will see far more use than many of these do these days. it will undoubtably get pushed harder than most do just to keep up with our insane traffic flow.. I expect to put at least 10k miles on it a year and maybe a bit more than that. Besides frequent oil changes stuff like this starter will fail again at some point. There is plenty of room under the hood to re arrange things to make maintenance and repairs a little more pleasant. So that is what I intend to do. To me this is just part of fine tuning my build. I have already done a bunch of stuff like this on this truck and it has worked out pretty nicely. I have no reason to think that these mods I intend to do won't be an improvement too. It is all just part of using a 60 year old vehicle on a regular basis. A lot of this probably doesn't apply to most of the more original trucks here. But trying to use one of those here on a daily basis with stock gearing etc.....would not have worked out very well at all. Edited October 29, 2015 by Jeff Balazs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkrider Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 The jeep M/C is a dual cylinder unit. It's a safety item, one for the front, one for the rear. Othe models will work as well, but the size and mechanical action makes it a good choice. It does require a mounting adaptor. I got mine from a local auto salvage yard for $30.00, which included the proportioning valve. For your one ton, I would. You still have Drum brakes on front and rear of your truck correct? Just want to be sure if this is a safe upgrade with 4 wheel drums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted October 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Paul has fitted a front disc brake kit on his truck. This can be done using the original type M/C. He chose to add the Cherokee dual res. M/C as an extra safety measure. I took mine a step farther and went with 4 wheel disc brakes. I used the Grand Cherokee M/C with 3/16" lines to provide a balanced match up to the system I installed. If you decide to stay with your drum brakes then there is probably no need to change over to a dual res. M/C. I chose to go with 4 wheel discs for a couple of reasons. My truck is a 3/4 ton and replacement drums etc.....are very scarce. Also setting up and adjusting the drums for best performance is a bit fiddly and requires the use of special tools. I live in a very heavy traffic region and I knew I wanted to use this as my daily driver. Discs all around just made more sense to me from a driving and maintenance standpoint. The 3.55 ratio Grand Cherokee rear axle gave me the gearing I was going to need and 12" rear discs. My truck slows down and stops nicely with no tendency to pull to one side or lock up at all. And all the brake system parts are readily available anywhere. As you may have gathered I am not a purist.....not that there is anything wrong with that. I knew I needed it to be a daily driver and have made a lot of mods to my truck.to get it close to being right for the way I want to be able to use it. I don't consider what I have built as a restoration. To me it is more of a recycling project. I have tried to retain most of the original look and feel but I am not afraid to change some details either. The one rule I have is that I do not want to change the general character of the truck. To me this means no frame or engine swaps and no drastic alterations to the body or amenities. What works for me is simply making this old truck work the best that it can ....safely and reliably.. Jeff Edited October 30, 2015 by Jeff Balazs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkrider Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Paul has fitted a front disc brake kit on his truck. This can be done using the original type M/C. He chose to add the Cherokee dual res. M/C as an extra safety measure. I took mine a step farther and went with 4 wheel disc brakes. I used the Grand Cherokee M/C with 3/16" lines to provide a balanced match up to the system I installed. If you decide to stay with your drum brakes then there is probably no need to change over to a dual res. M/C. I chose to go with 4 wheel discs for a couple of reasons. My truck is a 3/4 ton and replacement drums etc.....are very scarce. Also setting up and adjusting the drums for best performance is a bit fiddly and requires the use of special tools. I live in a very heavy traffic region and I knew I wanted to use this as my daily driver. Discs all around just made more sense to me from a driving and maintenance standpoint. The 3.55 ratio Grand Cherokee rear axle gave me the gearing I was going to need and 12" rear discs. My truck slows down and stops nicely with no tendancy to pull to one side or lock up at all. And all the brake system parts are readily available anywhere. Jeff Hmmm well it seems i may need to locate a 1/2 ton donor truck to even consider this idea. Because doesnt the 3/4 ton use the same 5 lug front end as the 1/2 ton? or is it a completely different set up from both the 1/2 ton and the 1 ton? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 You would at least need the 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton spindles. The axles are the same (pretty much). You will need to watch the king pin size though. They changed in mid 1950. Merle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted October 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Yes....yes.....yes! Newly rebuilt starter is back on. Man did I find the right guy this time around. And he is local. So much better than before you would think it was a brand new 12 volt system. Wow! And now I have an identical rebuilt spare as well. I couldn't be happier. I did slot the bolt heads as suggested and that really speeds up the install. Thumbs up on that little modification. I have left the oil filter off for now. I think I am going to move it over to the inner wheel well and have some braided lines made up. I want to leave the firewall clear for a future under dash brake pedal installation. I need to do some figuring....but it sure looks to me that there is ample room to do a dual booster M/C arrangement which would really make this old truck stop on a dime. If anyone has done this on a Pilothouse I sure would like to hear from you. I also got the Super White halogen headlights installed. They look bright in the daylight......can't wait to give them the real test. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave72dt Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 My truck is getting the dual master and booster on the firewall as well as hanging underdash pedals. However, I've replaced the entire firewall with a flat panel with a recess for the V8 and am not using the original firewall locations for anything that was mounted to it or holes bored in it. My dash isn't original either nor the steering column so I have a lot more freedom of where I'm putting things. No pics since the install isn't finished yet. You will need to reinforce the mounting area where the master will end up to eliminate stress cracks from flexing. Your radio will have to be moved, if you have one. The travel arc of the brake pedal is what's giving you that weird feel. It's completely opposite of the modern vehicle, it's a longer stroke and takes more effort than we're used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 I agree with Dave. When I first started driving my truck the brake pedal was awkward as I had to lift my foot higher than I was used to. After a while I just got used to it. Now it just feels normal for the Ol' Dodge. My brain just switches to that motion when I jump in the seat. Merle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted October 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 True enough about the pedal action. It is driveable but there is room for improvement. Also the adjustment rod between the pedal linkage and the M/C is extremely fiddly. As a result the brakes while very good can't be locked up unless you literally stand on the pedal. A better arrangement would be to have a dual booster similar to the way the system is in a Grand Cherokee. Then the brakes will really shine with just a touch. I have a good buddy who is an amazing fabricator. He will help me with the mounting situation. I think the biggest thing is going to be choosing the pedal assembly that gives me the best fit up. There are a ton of these to choose from. I will leave the clutch the way it is as it is very comfortable. I just need a single pedal hanger so other than some wiring I don't think I will have to move much. I have a single wire alternator so there is nothing but wire loom on the driver side firewall right now. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 clutch and brake pedal assembly of todays modern vehicles are well made but many are all in one assemblies. Of note in saying this, the steering column is as we know it is designed to fit between the two pedals albeit a tad high. Todays columns does not have the same angle of the older cars due to many having forward fitting rack and pinion and use of telescoping shafts and multiple steering universals. Just keep this in mind when selecting your swing assembly that the steering may have a lot to say about what you may or may not be able to use. these flatter fitting design may put the older column in play with the pedals.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted October 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 Yes exactly and the primary reason pedal assembly selection is going to take some thought. There does appear to be quite a few different single pedal designs available. Some of these have quite a bit of fit up adjustment built into them. I haven't gotten that far into this yet but it did look like there were a few that could be made to work. It doesn't hurt either to have a buddy that can literally do anything imaginable with metal. Jon is an absolute wizard. He has all the right skills and a huge shop full of tools and metal working equipment. I just need to come up with a combo that fits in without creating any other maintenance related interference. This is going to be the real trick. What I don't want to do is solve one issue and create another if you know what I mean. That would really suck. In the meantime I can live with it as it is. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruff1148kr Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 when you are looking at combo's be aware that some company's have not matched the booster and the master well I have 3 friends and myself all who have brought so called matched combos that required some type of bullit type adapter between the booster and master they are using a deep bore master that allows to much space between the two and causes a delay in brake reaction time 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted October 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 when you are looking at combo's be aware that some company's have not matched the booster and the master well I have 3 friends and myself all who have brought so called matched combos that required some type of bullit type adapter between the booster and master they are using a deep bore master that allows to much space between the two and causes a delay in brake reaction time That is very good to know. I do understand that all this needs very careful consideration. I won't make this alteration until I am positive I have selected all the correct components. There is just too much at stake. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 ... As a result the brakes while very good can't be locked up unless you literally stand on the pedal.... Jeff That's interesting. I can lock my brakes fairly easily. I haven't actually done it on purpose, but when I hit the deer earlier this year the tires were howling just before impact. I don't believe they locked, but they were in the verge. And it didn't take a gorilla leg to do it. I have stock rear brakes, with Rusty Hope disc brake conversion up front, and stock master cylinder. What is the bore size of your M/C compared to the OEM style? Merle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted October 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 Merle; I don't know off hand what size the bore is. I got it as a match to the Grand Cherokee rear disc's I have. I also matched the size of brake lines at 3/16". Of course the Grand Cherokee would have had a booster and as you know that is impossible with M/C in it's original location. I have played extensively with the adjustment on this arrangement. If I have it adjusted so that lock up is fairly easy......then I get very bad brake drag in fairly short order. When I have it adjusted as it is now I get no drag but a fair amount of pedal force is required to get close to lock up. It certainly isn't a perfect situation. It works Ok because the disc's themselves are just so effecient. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted October 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 I just can't get over how much nicer this newly rebuilt starter is. If I had only known I would have had this re-done a while back. My truck starts instantly with no choke and no pumping the gas. Holy smokes what a dfference! What an improvement. I guess I should have known that it wasn't right before. But I had never had one of these before or even drove one that I can recall. I just figured it had been gone over by someone who was supposed to know his business and never even considered that it could work a lot better. Now I know....... Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted November 2, 2015 Report Share Posted November 2, 2015 Hi Jeff, glad it worked out, yes even my older 12 volt starter fires up like what you mention. Infact, my truck 90% of the timer starts as easy as any of my modern vehicles, it may not run as smooth as they do at first, but starts easy. Today I plan to drop the oil pan and clean out and inspect the bottom end etc. The other day before it became like a rain forest here, went for a drive on a real windy day. On the highway from a dead stop, going against the wind, had to floor it to get to speed 100 kmh or 62 mph, had a hard time climbing to speed, but once there no problem. Now with a lot of traffic on a 2 lane highway with most doing 65-70 mph, this ain't fun. I am wondering why this engine is so sucked out at times, it does not burn oil, runs well enough. I just seems to not breath well enough and rev fast enough. Now is this the results of a 3.23 rear gear, or a tired engine? Now I do not need a truck to drive 80 mph , like you guy's in busy areas, but do want to drive 65 mph, and get there in a safe and reasonable manner. I have almost everything for the 318 V8 swap, but will not dive in just yet. This is no show/museum truck, but an old beater, so no issues with originality for me. Just sayin, if more performance, at a reasonable cost, would keep flattie, oh yah, those truck granny 4 spds suck, cannot see down shifting from 4th to 3rd on highway to pass, gear spread, might be too far off.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted November 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2015 I have 3.55 gearing and can't see going any taller than that with this heavy old truck. I can feel it a bit it going uphill. It get's up to speed real quick going downhill. There is no doubt that it would be more pleasant to drive with a peppier engine........ and an automatic. Because of the traffic here and the way the stop lights are timed I spend a fair amount of time rowing through the gears. I works but it is less than ideal. I have thought about building the flatty up but the idea of putting a bunch of money into a top drawer rebuild coupled to this transmission kind of kills it for me. I am going to drive it this way for a while before I make any rash decisions. Jeff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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