Water in Oil flathead six 1949 Desoto

[James_Douglas]

Water in Oil,

 

Hi all.  I checked my oil the other day at the 400 mile mark and it was gray.  That did not surprise me as the engine was rebuilt with about 10K miles on it when it went into storage in 1967.

 

I had taken the engine down to the short block and cleaned everything well, but one cannot really clean out the oil passages well and other areas were the old oil and its ash cling.  I did clean out the lifter pool very well, the oil pan and the timing cover and chain.

 

But, I had noted some water loss from the radiator over the last month after starting to drive it.  There is a drip behind the water pump at the head, but it is so minor I figured I would get some miles on it and build up a new pump and swap it later.

 

I drained the oil out.  I and put it into a tall skinny bucket. I let it sit over night.  I then the next day used a hand pump and pulled the bottom one inch and put it into a small container.  Shook it up and sure enough it had water in it.

 

I re-torqued the head and got it up to 75 pounds.  I did get about 1/4 to 3/8 of a turn on a couple of the (new) head bolts.  That is as much as I dare do as I did not want to snap one.

 

I put in a bottle of ceramic-seal. The expensive stiff my race buddies use in all their race engines when they fire them up.  You run it a couple of times during a 24 hour period and drain it out. 

 

I have new oil in it and a new filter.  Everything look good so far.  BUT, I did take the dipstick out a few times and let it drip into a teaspoon.  I then lit the bottom of the spoon and sure enough I got some bubbles.

 

I am hoping that it is leftover water that has not vapored out of the system yet. It has been cool here in San Francisco so I need to take it on a freeway out of the city and run it for a hour or two to get it good and hot and then come home and see what the oil looks like.

 

Setting aside a crack in the block for a moment, other than the cylinder head, where else on a flathead six would water migrate into the oiling system?

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks, James

Edited October 12, 2013 by James_Douglas

[Tom Skinner]

Take some plugs out.

Do they smell like anti-freeze?

If so if two adjacent plugs smell that way and a compression test doesn't quite show it -

probably a leaky head gasket.

I have torqued them back down to 75 LBS and everything is dandy again.

After that re -check plugs for anti-freeze smell if not - you have fixed the problem.

If still the smell and issues - then bad head gasket.

[James_Douglas]

Take some plugs out.

Do they smell like anti-freeze?

If so if two adjacent plugs smell that way and a compression test doesn't quite show it -

probably a leaky head gasket.

I have torqued them back down to 75 LBS and everything is dandy again.

After that re -check plugs for anti-freeze smell if not - you have fixed the problem.

If still the smell and issues - then bad head gasket.

Plugs looked just fine.  Maybe a little rich, but other than that ok.  I do not use any anti-freeze.  Here in SF if I dumped the water with anti-freeze I would get hell.  Since it never gets to freezing around here I don't worry about it.  If I know I am going to take it out into the valleys in the winter or up to the mountains, I put in some alcohol which will keep it from freezing for a month or two.  I do use prestone anti-rust (soluble oil).

 

James

[Grdpa's 50 Dodge]

IF your still leaky after all your checking,,,best,,,cheapest stop leak Barr none is ,,,,ground black pepper,,,couple heaping tablespoon fulls.  Its unbelievable how well it works for nada cost.

 

Have had a pickup where the radiator is so bad cant pour stuff in as fast as it runs out,,,almost.  Tried to buy new Rad. but was unavailable at the time.  friend says try this first,,,been running that way ever since 5 or 6 years.

[De Soto Frank]

James,

 

Any water / coolant getting into a combustion chamber  should produced a very clean plug, as the moisture will turn to steam and help burn-away any carbon deposits.

 

The old-timers' trick to de-carbon an engine was to run the engine until thoroughly warmed-up, then begin feeding water-mist into the air-horn - not enough to create hydraulic lock-up, but enough to create steam and clean the carbon out.

 

About two months after getting my '28 Model A, the head-gasket let-go between #3 and #4.  I was out on the road, so I carefully drove it home.  When I pulled the head, the first two cylinders were somewhat carboned, the rear two ( where the leak was ) were squeaky-clean.

 

So, if all your plugs had relatively equal amounts of deposit, I would bet the cylinders themselves are not shipping any water.

 

have you performed a compression test and / or cylinder leak-down test ?

It is remotely possible that the bottom of a water jacket has rusted-through, allowing water to migrate into the crankcase.

 

Before you re-acquired the car, had it lived in or spent any time in freezing climate, even during shipping ?  If so, perhaps a water jacket cracked internally ?

 

 

Another model A experience: they are known for cracking the deck between the exhaust valve seats and cylinder bore; when this happens, they frequently weep water from the water jacket through the exhaust valve pocket or deck, and into the cylinder, past the rings, and into the crankcase.  I have not heard of MoPar sixes tending to do this, but it might be a remote possibility.

 

Hope it's nothing really complicated.

 

Frank

[James_Douglas]

Frank,

 

The car went from my house when I was 10 about 15 minutes across town into a concrete floor-steel building. It almost never gets below 30F and inside a building even non-heated probably not even 32.  I know that Dom when he got the car drained the thing.  When I pulled the water distribution tube it was practically brand new.  The inside of the block looked better than any of my other Mopar Flatheads in the water jacket areas.  Clean little mineral deposits, I was really amazed. 

 

I will have to do a hot compression check and a leak down.  I had a water leak on one of the exhaust manifold bolts or the lower manifold stud.  I am wondering if it is possible that some water is finding its way into the crankcase or a gallery via a threaded stud or bolt.  I never liked the design with the studs-bolts tapped into the water jacket.

 

Hum.....

 

James

[Don Coatney]

James;

What did you use for thread sealent on your head bolts ans manifold bolts? The stuff you recommended for Billiys engine did not work as planned and he replaced it before we hit the road.

 

If you suspect the head gasket is leaking buy the tester linked below. When we stopped at the shop of forum member dodgeb4ua he had this tester and proved that the head gasket on Billys car was not leaking into the combustion chamber.

 

 

http://www.tooltopia.com/lisle-75500.aspx?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=cse&utm_term=LIS75500&utm_campaign=googlebase_18u&gclid=COKdkKjPkLoCFSho7Aod7DcArA

 

Quickly pinpoints combustion leaks. Checks combustion leaks caused by bad head gaskets, cracked blocks and cracked or warped heads. Indicating fluid changes from blue to yellow when exposed to combustion gases in the radiator. Connect the hose to any vehivle vacuum line. Place tapered end of tool into radiator opening after draining of some coolant. With the engine running, the vehicle's vacuum draws vapors through the indicating fluid for testng
Includes leak detector and testing fluid.

 

 

 

[James_Douglas]

Hi Don,

 

I used yellow Teflon tape on the head bolts.  I have not seen any water work its way up a bolt as yet and the plugs look good so I do not think, as opposed to know, that any water is making into the cylinders.  The oil was so gray that if the water was hitting a cylinder I would have thought that it would show up on a plug.

 

Can you conceive of any way water could get into the oil via a leak at a thread base?  I am trying to "see" the engine in 3D in my head to see if there are any tapped holes that if they leaked would allow water to make it into the block-pan.

 

James

[greg g]

Don't know if its still here but I posted a series of photos of a cutaway engine to the download area, they might help you.  I can't think of anywhere where the systems would cross.  Are you loosing coolant?

[Plymouthy Adams]

James..of head bolts threads....I would say not...of the 21 head bolts on the 218....only 14 of them go directly into the water jackets...this is the starter side row and middle row of head bolts.....the 7 on the manifold side, three thread into the intake valve ports and 4 seem to blind...the 4 blind are 17, 5, 8 and 20 of the tightening sequence..with 11, 2 and 14 sharing the intake port

 

I say these are blind as I could not detect any light in the adjacent water jacket holes as with all the others nor could I get a wire to find a passage by feel..

Edited October 12, 2013 by Plymouthy Adams

[Young Ed]

James..of head bolts threads....I would say not...of the 21 head bolts on the 218....only 14 of them go directly into the water jackets...this is the starter side row and middle row of head bolts.....the 7 on the manifold side, three thread into the intake valve ports and 4 seem to blind...the 4 blind are 17, 5, 8 and 20 of the tightening sequence..with 11, 2 and 14 sharing the intake port

 

I say these are blind as I could not detect any light in the adjacent water jacket holes as with all the others nor could I get a wire to find a passage by feel..

 

 

Some of the manifold bolts/studs certainly go into water of some sort. You will get a gush out of them if you don't drain first.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Ed...I can concede this point easily as the very block I was using for exploration has NOT been thoroughly cleaned and I was not in any manner forcing my light duty stick into the 4 manifold holes I called blind.....I will now go out and get a bit more aggressive and report back...but all the others..I can assure you I saw light into the water jacket when shining my pencil flashlight...

[James_Douglas]

I just took the car for a 50 mile drive.  Did some Freeway running at 65 MPH and pulled some very steep hills at 20 MPH off of stop signs here in SF.  I just put the car into the garage and will let the oil sit for an hour then pull the dip stick and take a look.  I will also let the dip stick drip into a spoon and see if I get bubbles when heated up with a match.

 

Wish me luck.

 

James

[Don Coatney]

Would that be this block?

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

Ed...by my saying the 7 bolts on the manifold side of the head..not the actual manifold attaching blots themselves

 

Am back...they were very curded up...they did break through to the water jackets also...as the threaded section in the corners did not go deep..I did not probe hard at first...they do angle back toward center..and yes...by all means some of the manifolds bolts do go into the water jackets also

Edited October 12, 2013 by Plymouthy Adams

[Plymouthy Adams]

Would that be this block?

 

 

 

that be correct Don..now just how did you get a picture of my block in your  shop?    lol

[Don Coatney]

I was hopeing you would have the rebuild done and the block returned by now. You should quit yackin and get back to work!

[Plymouthy Adams]

for those on the side lines..this is hilarious inside joke....lol

[James_Douglas]

Hi Guys,

 

it looks like I am still getting some water into the oil.  It is slow and taking time, but I see some bubbles visually and using the tea spoon test.

 

If anyone has a large Chrysler/Desoto block out, would you check the LOWER exhaust manifold stud holes for me?  I want to know if any of those are drilled-tapped into the water jacket?

 

I have Chryco service manual with a very good high res cross section down the middle of one of these blocks.  It shows the lower stud and not entering the water or oil passages.  That said, when I first fired the engine up, I noted a water drip someplace down there.  I tightened up the manifold bolts and it went away. BUT, perhaps it is crossing the water-oil passages or has a crack in there someplace. 

 

I checked the sparkplugs and they look OK, so I am thinking it may not be a head gasket.  I may have to pull the heater unit and the manifolds and see what is going on with the studs to make sure that it is not the source of the leak. If I do that, I can use compressed air into the stud holes and if I get anything making noise in the oil system then I will have a smoking gun.

 

Thanks all, James

Edited October 16, 2013 by James_Douglas

[Tom Skinner]

James,

On the 251 (Long Block) the two Lower (bottom) Long Middle Studs to the Exhaust Manifold do go into the Water Jacket.

Use a teflon sealer or teflon tape to try to stop the leak (that is if your lucky enough to pull them out without removing the exhaust manifold)

Sometimes they will spin right out when hot - if loose. Of course drain your coolant before attempting this or it will piss all over your garage floor.

Then if possible coax them out and seal them and re-install. Good Luck.

Tom

[James_Douglas]

Thanks Tom,

 

My schematic shows them not going through, but that does not say much...that is why I asked.

 

I am trying to figure out where the water is coming in at.  I may have to take a leak down chuck and pressurize each cylinder and see if I hear anything in the cooling system.  One of the few places where the water jacket and the oil galleries seem to come close is near those stud holes.  If it turns out not to be a head gasket, then that is an area I will have to look at.

 

I may pull the side covers next week and see if I can see any evidence of water in any or all of the lifter oil pools.

 

Thanks, James

[Dodgeb4ya]

All the Int/Exh manifold studs go into the water jacket/intake ports on the 25" engines as far as I know. A leak there would not cause water in the oil though. 

Bob

[knuckleharley]

 

 

http://www.tooltopia.com/lisle-75500.aspx?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=cse&utm_term=LIS75500&utm_campaign=googlebase_18u&gclid=COKdkKjPkLoCFSho7Aod7DcArA

 

Quickly pinpoints combustion leaks. Checks combustion leaks caused by bad head gaskets, cracked blocks and cracked or warped heads. Indicating fluid changes from blue to yellow when exposed to combustion gases in the radiator.

 

Includes leak detector and testing fluid.

 

Don,where do you buy more testing fluid and how much does it cost?

[Don Coatney]

I would guess the company that sells the tester also sells replacement fluid.

[Dodgeb4ya]

You can buy the fluid everywhere... even Walmart..