Engine Oil

[THRobinson]

I thought I'd find this in the tech archives, or under resources, but can only find that it takes 5qt/4.7 litres oil... but not what type.

 

Nice sale on for a 5 litre jug of Quaker State (40% off) 5w30, 10w30 and 5w20... was going to buy a couple of the 5w30 for my Chev Impala, thought I'd grab some for the '47 Dodge as well, since the oil has been in there probably 20-30yrs. Just not sure what kind it takes.

 

Figured when comes time to fire it up and see if it turns over, probably best to have new oil/filter.

[greg g]

What is the condition of your engine?  Has it been recently rebuilt, is it a highmileage deal that hasn't been apart?  Does it have a filter?  how many miles do you put on your car. How do you drive it.  The factory spec was for straight nondetergent 30 wt or 30 degrees plus, SEA 20 for temps from 10 to 30, an 10 under 10 degrees.  I run 15-40 detergent in mine with 10K since total rebuild.

[Plymouthy Adams]

you need to read your manual on lubrication....there are multi-weight and multi-grade for a tired old original engine..no one that I know will lube a rebuild in said manner and 5 quarts..you owe it to yourself and the car to read the lube section..

[THRobinson]

Condition?

 

Well, sat in a barn from what I know, for 25yrs... I've had it here in the garage for about 8, just now finally able to do some work.

 

Surface rust, can crank it by hand so seems to not be seized, some surface rust... idea is to see if it even starts, do the bare minimum cost wise to do it, and sorta see where I stand at that point... sell, fix, set on fire...

 

I just don't want to start it without replacing the filter/oil first because might do more harm than good depending what crap may be floating around in there. Likely drain, remove the oil pan, check for particulates, clean it and put it back on, oil, new filter, new spark plugs (Autolite 308 gapped at .025")... based on how well it starts/idles... well, hopefully just clean up and paint. Otherwise, I don't have the tools/space for a swap/rebuild.

[THRobinson]

you need to read your manual on lubrication....there are multi-weight and multi-grade for a tired old original engine..no one that I know will lube a rebuild in said manner and 5 quarts..you owe it to yourself and the car to read the lube section..

 

If I had a manual... I wouldn't need to ask.

 

I did order the 1941-48 Dodge manual from Bishko, but where I ordered is out of stock so, may be weeks before it shows up.

Edited September 15, 2013 by THRobinson

[Plymouthy Adams]

did you ask the PO what lubrication schedule/brand-weight he used in the vehicle...they are you best source of what is what in the car when buying any used product  and very much a need to ask question...am very glad you got a manual on order..it will become you best friend when working/maintaining this vehicle...

 

there are a number of arguments over what oil to use and the resulting problems mixing or making a severe diet change...a modern oil with detergents can start the process of internal sludge break up and you will need to do quite frequent oil changes to remove these particles from circulation....

[THRobinson]

I'm assuming PO is Previous Owner?

 

This car has not been started in about 35yrs... guy who sold it to me almost 10yrs ago, was selling off his brother's estate, and as far as I know, the brother never drove it. Merely bought it, intended to rebuild, and left it in a barn for 25yrs before it was imported to Canada where it was sold. 

 

So, basically... I have an As Is vehicle, that's been stored longer than I wanted after I bought it... either had no money, or no time... I still have no money but, it's time to either s*!t or get off the pot. 

 

My mechanical experience is basically what I learn as I go... on my daily driver I do my own work, stuff like brakes, balljoints, tie rods, starters, fluid changes, etc... so, that's why I'm on forums, to ask stuff. Half is learning by doing, but when comes to potentially damaging something like an engine, it's best to ask.

 

But, what I thought woulda been a quick answer, seems not to be. 10w30 is what I'll grab, if I read something somewhere saying otherwise, I'll change it before driving. For testing/starting during the rebuild I'll use the 10w30 with detergent. Just need to see if it will start, or sell the car and get something else that requires less work... if at all possible to even sell this one.

Edited September 15, 2013 by THRobinson

[ptwothree]

You should pull the plugs and crank it till the oil pressure gauge needle goes up.  You could also remove a valve cover to see how much the engine is sludged up.  

 

I'd stick with non detergent oil till you know what you have.

[54Illinois]

I would run 10w-30 in it. 

[THRobinson]

I always assumed detergent was a good thing... I don't mind changing oil filters if it means it will help clean things up a bit.

 

I'll be using FRAM C134PL filters, because I can get them easily for about $10. Though from what I hear I may have to make a gasket or find one online.

[knuckleharley]

I always assumed detergent was a good thing...

 

It is a good thing in cars with modern oiling systems designed for use with detergent oil and any trash in the oil is kept in suspension to be caught by the oil filter before it can get to the bearings and lifters.

 

Not such a good thing for obsolete engine designs that used non-detergent oils for decades and have oil systems designed for non-detergent oil,where any trash is supposed to just fall to the bottom of the oil pan to be drained out at oil changes.

 

This car has been sitting for decades,so any sludge in the engine is going to be rock hard and dried out,and there is bound to be water in the oil from condensation.

 

Best to just drain what is in it now and replace it with 5 quarts of 30 weight non-detergent oil,which is cheaper anyhow. A important consideration when you take into account that you should drain the oil again after getting it running and allowing it to get up to normal temperature.

 

Drain it again as soon as you shut the engine down,and then refill it with another 5 quarts of 30 weight non-detergent. Drive it around for a while and see how it does. Once you have it running and sorted out,you could consider dropping the base pan and cleaning out all the old sludge and trash in it and the oil pickup before putting non-detergent oil in it. You will already have the worse of the old trashy oil out of the engine by then and swapping to a detergent oil will be safer.

 

I did this to a 57 Ford tractor I bought from somebody else who had bought it and started running detergent oil in it. I didn't know he  had done this and as I watched the oil pressure drop from 40 psi at idle to less than 5 lbs at any RPM,I figured the bearings were bad and the previous owner had STP'd it to death to sell it. I needed to run the bush hog right then,so I decided to try swapping the oil filter and the dirty oil to see if I could get by with it one more time,and the screw on filter felt like it weighed 10 lbs when it came off. It was plugged full of sludge,and the oil couldn't get past the filter.

 

I drained all the oil out,filled it with 5 quarts of 30 w non-detergent oil,put a new filter on it,and fired it up. It sat right there and built up oil pressure to 50 psi. I kept a eye on the oil pressure gauge as I used it,and had to change filters 2 or 3 more times before the old sludge was cleared out and the new non-detergent oil had captured what was floating around and dropped it to the bottom of the oil pan. Truthfully,I could probably get away with using detergent oil with it now,but why bother when it's doing fine with the non-detergent oil that doesn't cost so much?

 

I am convinced to this day that the guy I bought the tractor from had never even heard of non-detergent oil (he was in his early 30's),and changed the oil right after he bought it and put detergent oil into it,thinking he was doing the right thing. Next thing he knows the oil pressure drops to near zero,and he panics and changes the oil and filter again,and immediately puts it up for sale before the oil pressure drops again and it throws a rod.

 

What I do know is he had one of those new crawler type rigs with a bucket and arms that go over the top of it and the operator sits low in a cage when I got to his house to pick up the tractor. I asked him why he bought that when he already had a tractor and bush hog,and he told me the new rig "works better for my lawn care and landscaping business". IMHO,he thought he was lying to me about the condition of the tractor engine to get rid of it.

[Tom Skinner]

Why waste time, oil, and money.

Drop the pan - clean it - new gasket - then refill with straight 30wt non-detergent - done.

Use a little extra oil for the filter. I use about 5-1/2 quarts to get to the mid point on my oil stick

with the filter change. 30 wt non-detergent at NAPA is @ $3.99/qt. now

[Robert Horne]

When I got my 37 engine that had been sitting for several years, I installed a new filter, 134pl Fram, 30wt oil,

and I put a little 2 stroke oil in my gallon can of fuel..

I used 30wt oil for a couple more years before I started using 15/40 wt.

Over 20 years now, no problems....

[knuckleharley]

Why waste time, oil, and money.

Drop the pan - clean it - new gasket - then refill with straight 30wt non-detergent - done.

Use a little extra oil for the filter. I use about 5-1/2 quarts to get to the mid point on my oil stick

with the filter change. 30 wt non-detergent at NAPA is @ $3.99/qt. now

My OPINION only,but I hate to do all that work and spend the money for a gasket kit on a engine that hasn't been started in decades,and one I have no idea about how good it is. I don't mind spending the money or doing the work once I get one running and know it holds oil pressure and doesn't smoke too badly or knock,but not before I know it's worth my time and money.

 

Besides,how much do 5 quarts of 30 wt oil cost when you buy it by the case,anyhow?

[Robert Horne]

 

 

Besides,how much do 5 quarts of 30 wt oil cost when you buy it by the case,anyhow?

 

 

$11.20...........

[austinsailor]

A couple people I have great respect for on this board have posted some things I don't agree with this time.

I really don't think what oil was in the motor 30 years ago when it was last run is of any relevance at all, even if you could figure it out. Would you go try to find some old stock somewhere? If it had Pennzoil 30 weight in it in 1980, do you think the can - oops - plastic jug - you find in Walmart today would remotely be the same?

I have brought back several old ones that sat for years with good success. I've pulled the pans, cleaned out massive amounts of sludge, put them back on and filled with modern detergent oil. They smoked for an hour or two, cleaned up and after a couple hours running, quit smoking and did fine. (I used Rotella 15 w 40)

Point #1: there is usually great amounts of sludge in the bottom of the pan, you don't want to pump it into the motor. While it may be true it accumulated over time while it was used, it's not fresh and may now have moisture mixed in. A pan gasket cost less than the oil you're putting in, it's just not sensible to bypass this.

Point #2: I believe that the new high detergent oil loosens the varnish and other things that keep the rings from sealing well. I have no proof of this, but my experience is compatible with this theory. It's true it'll put this crud in your oil, but at least you can get it out of your motor by just removing the plug. If you feel non detergent is the way to go, after it's had time to get this stuff loosened and in the oil, go back to non detergent. If you want to clean it more, put a can of ATF in instead of one quart of oil. That really increases the detergent.

[THRobinson]

Must be an American thing... local stores here, looking at about $5/qt so about $25. That's why the on sale Quaker State for $15 was appealing.

 

@Knuckleharley - Agreed. Anything like a gasket kit is automatically a >2 week wait since ordered online, plus all the work to discover that it's a dead engine. I have no idea why it was sold 35yrs ago, or had much info when I bought it 10yrs ago. I just want to put the absolute minimum into it to see if it works. Like I said, if the engine is dead... I don't have the tools/space to do anything about it. :S

[austinsailor]

The absolute minimum is to put a battery to it and start cranking. Why even change the oil?

[THRobinson]

Why? because after 35yrs I'm assuming there is going to be some sludge and perhaps even some solids in the engine that would be best to flush out first.

[_shel_ny]

Sludge as I think may have been stated already probably is not going to come out of the pan when you drain the oil. Generally a "scrape it out" if it has been sitting that long.

 

The oil in my replaceable filter bypass canister was like pudding. There was a drain, but I had to scoop it out of there.

 

 

EDIT: not saying that you should not change the oil.

Edited September 16, 2013 by shel_bizzy_48

[54Illinois]

Dropping the pan will allow for a visual inspection as well.  Cylinders, crank, bearings, and whatever may be setting in the oil pan sludge itself. 

 

Oil, filter, gasket set should be about $55.  A couple hours for the labor...not that much involved as far as investment.

[THRobinson]

Yup, like I said in post #4, plan is to drop the pan, clean it out, replace the filter and add new oil for testing the car. Long way from driving even if the engine starts. Need to get some floor issues fixed, and locate seats since mine is missing the front/back seats.

[austinsailor]

Why? because after 35yrs I'm assuming there is going to be some sludge and perhaps even some solids in the engine that would be best to flush out first.

You are correct. The problem is draining will not remove that stuff, but getting hot with oil circulating will get some of it loose, pumping it into the motor. Even if the motor was in fine shape before, it's not going to help it. If these had a full flow filter it wouldn't be quite the concern, but with ours most will go right to the bearings.

And, if you use a modern detergent oil it'll loosen up even more of that stuff in the pan. I would say that if you chose to not clean out the pan you should use non detergent for this first testing.

It's certainly your choice, but you did ask.

[Scruffy49]

I fired my 218 in early 94 on oil that had been put into the engine in 1974 when it went into hibernation (in the barn). Flowed fine. Chained the truck to another truck, when he hit 35 mph I dropped it into 3rd and popped the clutch. Lit right off. 40 pounds of oil pressure. The next time I went to start it (2008) it had been in the backyard since 94, it broke a bunch of rings. Haven't torn it down to see what else got ruined, but picked up a running 230 just in case... which has since siezed from sitting idle for 2 years and change.

 

If it was stored properly, she should start for you. Once you figure out the quirks involved in conning an L6 into actually starting instead of just spinning over. My truck has a hand choke, hand throttle, foot throttle, starter pedal and a key switch involved... The cars are a lot easier.

[TodFitch]

 . . . Once you figure out the quirks involved in conning an L6 into actually starting instead of just spinning over. My truck has a hand choke, hand throttle, foot throttle, starter pedal and a key switch involved... The cars are a lot easier.

Depends on what era car. Mine has those same controls you write of and to top it off neither the choke nor the hand throttle knobs are labeled.