A Test

[Don Coatney]

By looking at this picture how would you diagnose the problem if there is a problem?

 

 

[desoto1939]

DOn:  Not being a mechanic and looking at the picture I would say there is a lot of carbon build up and the car is running rich in the air fuel mixture. The blck stuff also looks wet to me inthe picture.

 

I would say a fuel air mixture issue.

 

Rich HArtung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[bbbbbb99]

Oil rings allowing blowby, although the plugs look to be in decent shape. Too many unknown variables to diagnose through a photo.

Edited September 3, 2013 by bbbbbb99

[1941Rick]

Burning bunker fuel????   Is the build up sticky?     Looks like tar.    What kind of oil was used?

[_shel_ny]

Looks good to me, but the plugs aren't indexed that well

[busycoupe]

Looks like oil is leaking around the valve guides.

Dave

[captden29]

several holes for water flow are blocked by corrosion. capt den

[Don Coatney]

Bit of history. The picture is a rebuilt engine with about 100 miles on it.

 

Also, found this interesting video.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQy2EbfmMmI

[frankieflathead]

"Tech" is da man!

[bbbbbb99]

Can't get the video to play. Keps telling me to download Adobe Flash player even after I've downloaded it.

 

What's the scoop?

[greg g]

So who ever put the engine together either didn't stagger the ring gaps or made them too big.  Did not watch the video yet.

[Scruffy49]

My first thought was "Why did you paint the inside of the combustion chamber"... looks just like 1/2 cured flat black Rustoleum. Followed by, the ring gaps weren't set right or the wrong rings were installed.

 

Interesting video, soundtrack must have been on vinyl or an even older medium though, awful lot of needle pops...

[Hawkeye]

 

Interesting video, soundtrack must have been on vinyl or an even older medium though, awful lot of needle pops...

 

 Us old guys will remember film strips.    Play the record, listen for the beep, advance the film projector to the next frame.    At 8:24 the little guy says to turn the record over...  

 

Don,  thanks for sharing the training film strip!

[Dodgeb4ya]

Once a month at our local NW region Chrysler club meetings back in the 70's and 80's I used to show one of those Mr Tech training and car sales records and filmstrips. I have most all of them from 1947 through 1954.

Yes Mr Tech is da man!!!

[De Soto Frank]

That film-strip link was a lot of fun, Don !

 

So, what is the story with your mystery engine?  I'm hoping that's not your De Soto 251 ?

 

[Don Coatney]

Once a month at our local NW region Chrysler club meetings back in the 70's and 80's I used to show one of those Mr Tech training and car sales records and filmstrips. I have most all of them from 1947 through 1954.

Yes Mr Tech is da man!!!

Bob;

What is your "take" on the photo of the head? I think the rings were not yet seated but that is my best guess. This is the engine that Billy, Tim, and I assembled a couple weeks back. To the best of my knowledge the rings were installed correctly per the instructions and the end gap was checked by the book and within spec. Billy pulled the head as he thought the gasket was leaking but I dont agree that it was. I was told the head was shaved clean as well as the block decked. Billy claims there was no smoke out the tail pipe nor excessive blow by. Tim and I both left before the engine was started but Billy said it ran well. He did say that the temperature would climb to 180 when driving up a steep hill but in my opinion that is normal as my engine does the same when it is working hard. Oil pressure was 40 PSIG at speed and 20 PSIG at idle. Any thoughts?

[Dodgeb4ya]

Billy pulled the head for some reason even though he said it was not smoking. Why did he say he felt the need to pull the head if it was not smoking? My first thought was the engine was passing oil by the rings.

I once rebuilt a chevy 230 six. Left it upside down for a month or more. The hyperlube I used back then slowly drained onto the cylinder walls and got into the cast iron rings too. The engine rings took months to finally seat in and oil consumption ended up a qt every 2000 miles.

The parts supplied today concern me especially for our old flatheads as I don't think the quality / type of material and OE specs are near as close to the factory as they should be.

This issue appears to be a major concern I take it?

Ring tension/ gap and spacing, cylinder wall clearance / cylinder wall finish to match the type of rings ect. and type of assembly ring lube (minimal) are all factors that affect oil ring break in performance.

[squirebill]

What caused "Billy" to pull the head in the first place? Sounds like the engine was running OK. Did he pull the plugs and see they were carbon fouled and clean them before reinstalling them and pulling the head? I've only overhauled a few engines but the ones that were carbon fouled, the carbon covered the complete surface of the head firing chamber. (Except a Studebaker flat 6 that had 10d nail heads on top of the #6 piston. It was all dinged up, but no carbon.) Does it strike anyone as odd that the carbon is only in the recessed area of the head and does not fully cover the area that would be over the piston? Also, I see what looks like green antifreeze residue. Is this left from disassembly of the head and still a liquid or is it more like antifreeze residue that has been burned crisp? What does the top of the block look like? If this is excessive oil getting past the rings, I would think the whole area over the piston should be carboned. I tend to think it may be oil getting past the valves. Were the valve guides redone?

[Young Ed]

Bob;

What is your "take" on the photo of the head? I think the rings were not yet seated but that is my best guess. This is the engine that Billy, Tim, and I assembled a couple weeks back. To the best of my knowledge the rings were installed correctly per the instructions and the end gap was checked by the book and within spec. Billy pulled the head as he thought the gasket was leaking but I dont agree that it was. I was told the head was shaved clean as well as the block decked. Billy claims there was no smoke out the tail pipe nor excessive blow by. Tim and I both left before the engine was started but Billy said it ran well. He did say that the temperature would climb to 180 when driving up a steep hill but in my opinion that is normal as my engine does the same when it is working hard. Oil pressure was 40 PSIG at speed and 20 PSIG at idle. Any thoughts?

 

Both of my flatheads had 45PSI oil pressure at all times when they were fresh. Even the coupe with almost 20K miles on it doesn't get as low as 20 at idle.

[JerseyHarold]

Is the draft tube clear? 

[Dodgeb4ya]

Was this engine a 100% rebuild or do what might be thought to be necessary?

[De Soto Frank]

"Pulled the head becasue he thought the gasket was leaking..."

Leaking what?  Coolant ?  Compression ?

 

 

100 miles is not nearly enough for break-in...

 

I'm intrigued that the dark deposits are only on the recessed part of the head, over the valves.

 

When I've pulled heads off of flatheads that have been in service for a long time, the carbon deposits usually coat the entire combustion chamber & piston head ( unless there's been a prolonged coolant leak, which tends to steam the carbon out).

 

 

Since the plugs don't look too bad, my thoughts would be:

 

1) Engine / rings  not finished breaking-in

 

2) Oil being pulled past intake valve guides ?

 

3) Carb running rich ?

 

4) Additives in fuel ? ( I liked the "bunker fuel" comment!)

 

 

As for temp climbing to 180 when pulling a hill,  again, that is not unusual for a fresh, tight, engine that is not finished break-in...


 

[Don Coatney]

100% rebuild. Everything was done

[Dodgeb4ya]

If it didn't burn lleak oil-visibly and didn't knock or lose coolant I'd put the head back on and drive it a few hundred miles and see how it does before tearing it apart. It was put together by compentent men was it not?

Edited September 4, 2013 by Dodgeb4ya

[Don Coatney]

"Pulled the head becasue he thought the gasket was leaking..."

Leaking what?  Coolant ?  Compression ?

 

 

100 miles is not nearly enough for break-in...

 

I'm intrigued that the dark deposits are only on the recessed part of the head, over the valves.

 

When I've pulled heads off of flatheads that have been in service for a long time, the carbon deposits usually coat the entire combustion chamber & piston head ( unless there's been a prolonged coolant leak, which tends to steam the carbon out).

 

 

Since the plugs don't look too bad, my thoughts would be:

 

1) Engine / rings  not finished breaking-in

 

2) Oil being pulled past intake valve guides ?

 

3) Carb running rich ?

 

4) Additives in fuel ? ( I liked the "bunker fuel" comment!)

 

 

As for temp climbing to 180 when pulling a hill,  again, that is not unusual for a fresh, tight, engine that is not finished break-in...

 

Frank, I agree with everything you said. He pulled the head because he placed some assembly lube (engine was hot and running) on 3 head bolts near the manifold and spotted bubbles. He then drained the block and removed the top radiator hose. Filled the block with water to the top of the goose neck, un tensioned the fan belt so the water pump was not spinning, started and raced the engine and observed bubbles. That is what I was told and I was not a witness. My belief is the rings have not yet seated.