1949 Chrysler Windsor

[GlennCraven]

Here's a link to a good thread about 273 vs. 318/360.....

 

48D  

 

Thanks. That's a good thread that illustrates many opinions.

 

I like the comment, "Build a package that will put a smile on your face at the end of the day."

 

But while there are pro-273 comments, there are definitely those who suggest something entirely different.

 

I still don't have the car yet (and he still does, the crucial element), so there's plenty of time to still consider drivetrain combos. It's a hard enough decision between L6/Fluid Drive (available in South Dakota), L6/904, and LA small block/904. Then I start trying to figure between 273/318/360 and the plot thickens further.

 

So far this 273 is the best deal I've seen. Known running when pulled, supposedly only needs a distributor cap, comes with everything else including the A/C compressor if I wanted or needed it, and priced at $150. He started at $300 some time ago and hasn't been able to sell it. I might pick it up for $100 cash, who knows?

 

I've seen plenty of 318s that were rebuilders for $100-$150, and even a couple of 360 short blocks for $300. But nothing yet that looked like you could just drop it in and go. (As much as you CAN "just drop in" a different vintage engine between these 1949 fenders.)

 

And the 273 would definitely be different.

[48Dodger]

Wow....a guy who actually reads what the members write and trys to learn from it to expand his ideas and options. 

 

lol...very cool.

 

48D

[GlennCraven]

Wow....a guy who actually reads what the members write and trys to learn from it to expand his ideas and options. 

 

lol...very cool.

 

48D

 

Thanks, Dodger! ... Everybody wants to be a smart guy, but one of the smartest things a guy can ever do is recognize when somebody else knows a lot more than he does and defer to their knowledge and experience.

[falconvan]

318s are inexpensive and it's not a hard swap. Plus they are great engines. I've got one with an AX-15 Dakota 5 speed behind it in my 51 Plymouth. I paid $100 for a decent 318 on CL and it looked great inside; didnt even have to do a full rebuild. I put a Summit Racing street/strip cam along with a used aluminum intake, a $79 Ebay Mopar HEI distributor, and it really runs strong. There's a few pieces of the puzzle you need. One is a mid 60's-early 70's small block Dart or Barracuda drivers side exhaust manifold. It has a curve that wraps real nice around the steering column. Also you need single groove pulleys and will need to move the radiator to the front side of the radiator support for clearance. There's some fabrication involved but it's a great swap.

Edited May 17, 2013 by falconvan

[greg g]

Another bit of conventional wisdom on the V8 swap is to offset the engine to the pass side an inch or so.  Gives you clearance for the stock steering box, and when you get it buttoned up it's not noticeable visually.  The factory did much the same when cramming V8's into A bodies.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Dakotas were offset also making these front subframes such an idea transfer...but it is not just cut and weld this I will assure you...logistically, everything comes into play and modifications are many but well worth it if you have the time and place to do the work

[wayfarer]

I've been lurking, and will add my 2¢.

There are some cylinder head/intake manifold differences between the 273 and the rest of the LA engines, so, keep in mind that you cannot just plop a 318 manifold on a 273.  IMHO, you will be better served by using the 318-360.

All of the LA engines are the exact same physical size.  The logic is that if a 318 fits then a 360 will fit and at the same time provide more low speed torque. There were millions of each produced. Yes, you will need the rear sump pan as used in a pickup or van, and when you start looking you are as likely to find a pickup/van engine as a pass car engine. No, the 318 and 360 oil pans do not interchange.

As to the durability issue, I bought new a 79 W150, 318-TF. I have long since stopped driving the truck but I did put 250K miles on it and the heads have never been off. Someday the truck will get a major re-do.

As mentioned, the A-body driver side exhaust manifold nicely clears the steering shaft. Our very own Fester has a nicely detailed swap you should look at:  http://mopar.pairserver.com/p15d24ph_forum/topic/25759-318-into-my-50-coronet/page-3?hl=fester#entry280886

As for disc brake up grades, connect with www.rustyhope.com

 

If you choose to use an inliner, then as mentioned, you have many engine options and some nice dress-up parts to consider. A TF would make for an easy driver and with some creativity you should be able to use the existing column shifter. If you use the A500 overdrive then you will only be adding a on-off switch for the OD. This will also require that a new rear axle be installed since the original lacks an e-brake.

As mentioned, the 251-265 are great engines to consider. Lots-o-torque.

 

Almost forgot to mention...George Asche,  at 814-354-2621. A wealth of info on inliners. If you call, remember that a 'short' conversation can last an hour.

 

Keep us posted as you proceed.

 

.

Edited May 18, 2013 by wayfarer

[GlennCraven]

Thanks again everyone for the great input, phone numbers for experts and everything! The car still hasn't sold and I'm gettin' around to going back and making an offer.

Meanwhile, I got briefly derailed this weekend by sort of flippantly buying a 1992 Firebird "parts car" on eBay for $250. It had "sold" once, for a couple hundred more than that, but the buyer never contacted the seller at auction's close, so the seller posted it again. I didn't expect $250 to hold up, but it did.

The car was a couple hours away from me, had been hit in the left front and buggered up a bit elsewhere (minus left front fender, busted windshield, and somebody made off with the T-tops, otherwise its complete) and allegedly ran and drove well. Considering it's a 3,000-pound vehicle and the local metal dealer pays $190 a ton for cars, I figure worst-case scenario (provided it did run and drive) I would drive it home Sunday, drive it to the scrapyard today, and get my money back, all but the gas for the trip.

The 'Bird is only a 3.1 V6, but at 118k miles it runs like a scalded cat!

Now ... she drives like a crab, and I wouldn't call that "drives good" ... but I was shocked how much power the fuel-injected V6 had and how easily, once I knew how to manage the off-handling, I could do 70 mph on Kansas back-highways at 2,000 RPMs with the overdrive auto transmission. Sounds like a hotrod, too.

Everything still attached to the car, works. Brakes were fine. But it needs both front fenders, driver's door and left quarter straightened or replaced, plus a headliner, new shocks, the windshield and the T-tops ($40 a side at my local salvage) so there's probably too much work to make fixing the Firebird worth it, considering a clean one can be had for $1,500 almost any day of the week.

My girlfriend loves the way this Firebird sounds -- best girlfriend EVER, totally wants this Windsor as much as I do -- and she suggested putting the Firebird drivetrain in the Chrysler at least for the time being. (Because I told her, "In theory you can put almost anything in almost anything, if you have the money and expertise.") ... I suppose that COULD be done, though eventually a Mopar solution for the Windsor's drivetrain is mandatory for me.

I could also pull this drivetrain to sell, roll the car into the scrapyard, remove the factory alloys to see if I can get $100 for the set on Craigslist, and crush the rest, to maybe come out ahead. Or trade drivetrain for drivetrain with a salvage yard or something.

I needed my haphazard eBay parts-car purchase to be a Mopar V8, but I haven't seen any of those yet, on eBay or Craiglist.

Edited May 20, 2013 by GlennCraven

[GlennCraven]

So I went out to one of the two local salvage yards today to pick up t-tops for this eBay Firebird. They had 'em out of a Camaro (same fit) for $40 a side when the best price anywhere else in the region was $75 a side and Camaro/Firebird specialty salvage yards quote $125 a side.

 

While out there, I asked if they had any running Mopar small blocks. The owner's wife working the inventory computer said she'd check, but a young guy who works in the yard said the owner had something at home he might be willing to sell.

 

The couple bought the salvage yard in the last year or so and recently have been moving cars the owner has acquired over decades onto the front lot of the rural property in anticipation of an auction later this summer. "You can't fix 'em all," the wife finally convinced him, and since there are probably 30 to 40 vehicles out there for the auction already, no doubt she is right.

 

"Anything that's still in the garage he's probably got plans for," the woman said.

 

"I dunno," said the young man. "I know of one motor like that he has out there for sure and it can't hurt to ask."

 

Moments later, while the young man was retrieving the t-tops from a shelf in the warehouse, the owner called from town to ask what everyone wanted picked up for lunch. His wife handed over the phone to me, saying a customer wanted to ask about an engine. I asked about small block Mopars.

 

The man said he had an engine and transmission combo he'd sell; a 360 and a 727 pulled from a Dodge pickup he'd acquired. The price for the combination, with all necessary parts and accessories, ready to install, would be (cough) $800.

 

"Are you looking for mild or wild?" he asked.

 

"Mild would be fine, but wild is interesting, too," I replied. "I take it this might be wild."

 

"It's wild," he said. "I don't know how they built it. I don't know what they put in it. But it peeled the right rear tire clean off that truck, if that tells you anything."

 

Sounds like something that would require more than the factory 1949 Windsor rear end, huh?

Edited May 24, 2013 by GlennCraven

[Dave72dt]

Could be but not necesarily.  An open center rear axle, empty box and a heavy right foot can make that right rear spin pretty easily.  Most of the torque seems to go through that tire regardless and that tire will wear faster than the left.  Even if it is wild, doesn't mean you have to drive it that way.  Sensible driving will keep the stock parts together for a long time.

[Plymouthy Adams]

With what Dave said in the later part of the 60's at the station we used a 1952 stock set up Dodge with the wrecker attachment to the back..that thing regularly pulled in about everything coming and going..it would have been going yet had the driver knew how to pull a school bus out of a ditch, it did the job but not without damage to the housing...(remember the if he knew how part)..but we popped another stock axle in there and business as usual..only one I ever remember seeing failed in my lifetime and that was pure stupid operator abuse..I remember it was my job to take the station's A100 van and scour the country looking for donor truck..found it about 19 miles away behind a barn...

[knuckleharley]

I could also pull this drivetrain to sell, roll the car into the scrapyard, remove the factory alloys to see if I can get $100 for the set on Craigslist, and crush the rest, to maybe come out ahead. Or trade drivetrain for drivetrain with a salvage yard or something.

 

Be VERY careful,grasshoppa! That's the sort of thinking I had when I first got back into this stuff. "What can it hurt?",I said? One "good deal" lead to another good deal,and before I knew it I was buying a wrecker to drag all the stuff home that was being given to me. Then one day it occured to me that I had 26 partially stripped hulks in my yard,and was spending more time cutting grass around them and moving them around than I was working on my projects. Yeah,you can sell the parts and even the cars on ebay,but when you are dealing with more than one car you are selling or parting out,it can end up sucking away all your time and you don't have time for anything but answering emails and finding boxes to ship stuff off.

 

I've got my yard down to maybe a dozen parts cars now,and they are the ones for old cars with fenders and trim parts I want or need. Most of the newer crap I had for the drivetrains are stripped and gone.

 

It really is a lot of work and very time-consuming  to pull parts,mark them for what they are,catalog them in files on your computer,take photos,answer emails,track down boxes and packing material,and then list the damn things and respond to the emails.

 

I currently have parts from a 76 Coupe de Ville (anybody need a 500 cu in caddy?) and a 68 Electra 225 on ebay,and the reality is if I count all the time I have involved in getting those parts listed and sold,I doubt I will be making 3 bucks a hour on some of the stuff.

 

The only bright spot is I saved these parts from going to the crusher.

 

I am done with dragging stuff home to strip it out,though. No mas. In the future I will just spend the money to buy the parts I need or leave it alone.

[GlennCraven]

Be VERY careful, grasshoppa! That's the sort of thinking I had when I first got back into this stuff.

 

 

Yeah, even before the auction ended on this Firebird I was hoping somebody would bid $251. I certainly don't NEED it.

 

I can still crush it for what I paid, at least.

 

Good news on the rear end, fellas. And yes, even if that 360 had 400 or 500 horsepower, I wouldn't have to drive it like that.

[wayfarer]

If you can inspect the 360 and get any hints as to a recent rebuild then the $800 is reasonable. Machine shop labor is easily that much.

[GlennCraven]

I went back to the salvage yard yesterday and talked with the owner in person.

 

He at first suggested he would drop the 360 and 727 into whatever car I had along with the price of purchase if I was willing to then tow it home and finish the job ... wiring, fuel lines, etc. But when I told him it was a 1949 Windsor he hesitated. He wanted to know what sort of subframe I had in it, or would want in it. And the rear axle. I said some folks who should know told me the stock front suspension on the old car was probably sufficient unless I really wanted to toss the Chrysler around the curves, and the rear end would be fine if I didn't abuse it. He was unconvinced.

 

"I've built a few street rods," he said. "If you don't subframe it and change out the rear end, you're gonna be disappointed in how it drives."

 

I know what he's thinking, but I'm not sure he's right. I wish I could go for ride in somebody's car with newer drivetrain and original suspension and rear end to see what it's like. 

 

Just as interesting, the salvage lot owner valued the Firebird higher than I would have imagined. Essentially he suggested he'd buy the Firebird off me for what I have in it. I'll take it by the salvage yard in the next week or so, when I can move it down from my girlfriend's garage an hour away, and see if he'll make good on that.

 

Breaking even would be a super deal for me. I'd have a great story (buying the Firebird on eBay, then picking it up and driving it home t-topless in a tornado) and I would have made a decent relationship with a guy who has a lot of old parts and iron laying around right here in my own neighborhood, plus connections of his own.

[Dave72dt]

It's not going to ride or handle any differently than the stock drivetrain unless there is a noticable weight change between drivetrains or the front to rear weight bias has been changed  alot.  JMO and I've gotten a bit pessimistic over the years but I'd rather see him drop his price on the combo than have him "give" you the labor for dropping it into your frame or end up selling you an adequate subframe to install it into.  If his old streetrods are still around, find out where they are and take a good serious look at his workmanship before biting on his offer.

[48Dodger]

I think the problem comes with expectations of the whole package once you add a strong motor. It wont handle better because of a more modern motor....it won't brake better beacuse of said motor.....it won't ride smoother because of said motor....etc. The hot rodder has to expect to make changes across the board to accomidate a motor with more torque ( V8 twists on the frame differently then a L6 ) and more HP......"you need more whooa for more go"....and so forth. Figger out what you want front to back before you let a guy bolt in that motor tranny. Otherwise it may be lost money. 

 

48D

[knuckleharley]

"I've built a few street rods," he said. "If you don't subframe it and change out the rear end, you're gonna be disappointed in how it drives."

 

I know what he's thinking, but I'm not sure he's right. I wish I could go for ride in somebody's car with newer drivetrain and original suspension and rear end to see what it's like. 

Number 1,subframing is dangerous and doesn't work that well if whoever is doing the work doesn't truly understand all the engineering that goes into factory suspensions,and is a excellent welder with good fabrication skills..

 

Number 2 is that not everybody wants a old car that drives and rides like a new car. Some people prefer old cars that ride and drive like old cars because it brings back memories. Which is the reason many of us fool with old cars to start with.

 

A older car with a newer drivetrain and original suspension will ride and handle exactly like it did with the original drivetrain in it,but have more power. The rear end makes no difference at all on anything other than the engine rpms,and a 3:70 rear gear ratio (for example) in a 49 Chrysler acts no differently than a 3:70 rear drive ratio in a 2000 Ford Explorer.

 

I own old cars set up both ways. My 39 Ford has the original beam front axle with 4:10 Detroit Locker rear,automatic transmission,and probably 350 hp. The rear springs were changed to parrarrel springs (like your 49 Chrysler has) when the rear was installed. I am in desperate need of either a 4 bar setup or traction bars on the rear if I try to nail it hard taking off,but other than that I am happy with it in every respect.

 

My 48 Plymouth coupe has a 78 Camaro frame clip,motor,transmission,and rear end,and the entire suspension has been rebuilt. It rides and drives like a brand new 78 Camaro. It clearly handles better than a stock 48 Plymouth in the curves,but my Roger Road Racer days are over with,so that doesn't matter to me.  I bought the car with the basic suspension install done,but had to finish it up and detail and rebuild it to get it to where it is today. If I had to do it again,I wouldn't. My OPINION is that it is just too damn much work for so little "real" return. These cars rode and drove fine as they left the factory,and there is no need to fix it if it ain't broken.

 

Now,if you have a shop,all the tools you need,and the experience to set it up and do it properly and you just want to do it,go ahead. Nothing wrong with it if that's what you want to do.

 

If this is your first project car and your tools and experience are limited,keep it simple,safe,and reliable. The goal is to get the car on the road so you can drive and enjoy it.

 

If you do decide to let him do a frame clip,make sure you get the names and phone numbers of other customers he has done this for,and check with them on the quality of his work and how happy they are with the end results.

If he can't or won't provide that,don't get him to do it.

Edited May 28, 2013 by knuckleharley

[GlennCraven]

If this is your first project car and your tools and experience are limited, keep it simple, safe, and reliable. The goal is to get the car on the road so you can drive and enjoy it.

 

This really should be Rule 1 for me.

 

I can get a lot of joy out of putting together a smooth-running, reliable vehicle with classic lines and features. A somewhat aggressive stance and sound from the tailpipe wouldn't hurt, but it doesn't really have to smoke the tires for a block or corner like a sports car. Someday I wouldn't mind having that capability in a car like this, but price and wrenching experience are both limiters for me right now.

 

Whether old flathead six and Fluid Drive, flat-six and more modern transmission, or an LA small block and modern transmission, all seem to be fairly straightforward drivetrain options. I'd like to consider the prospects of upgrading to disc brakes all-around. Eventually I might like to have Vintage Air (it hits 100 or even 110 here in the summers) and a stereo, without undoing the original appearance of the interior.

 

My honest, first vision for the car was something of a period hot rod or custom; maybe what a teenager would have done with this two-door Chrysler if he managed to scrape up the money to buy it as his first car in the late 1950s or the 1960s. ... Get it running and start driving it to "school" and work. Fix it up and add more cool stuff as I go along and finances allow.

 

Late-50s would suggest sticking with a flathead and building/dressing it up a little, which would be cool. The LA small block came along in 1964 and would be a suitable "modern" engine for the '49 Windsor. I think that's one of the reasons the (advertised as) good-running 273 that's still available on eBay for $150 has a strong appeal for me. It's inexpensive and one like it would have been readily available from a late-model wreck at a salvage yard in the latter stages of this era I'm envisioning. (Of course, after 1967, so would a 318.)

 

Obviously to really hot-rod something, even in the 1950s and 1960s, a four-on-the-floor would be the tranny of choice. But I do want to keep the stock shift lever in this car because it looks so good, and though I enjoy shifting and the "driving experience," I'm OK with an automatic.

 

Power disc brakes would be a bit beyond the scope of that '50s-'60s constant work-in-progress, but in the 21st century it seems responsible to give the car modern stopping power when I can. Of course the air and stereo (especially with CD and maybe Sirius/XM) would also be outside the realm of what that 1950s or '60s teen could have done, but maybe we can just say that the teenager held onto the car into his adult years and decided to eventually dress it up as a more comfortable cruiser. Those would likely be the last things I'd add and that would seem fitting.

 

That should be a fairly simple and (as project cars go) fairly inexpensive way to go. Buy the rolling car. Buy the drivetrain. Install and get it running. Make sure the brakes stop it. Get a tag. Head to Sonic for a milkshake. 

[knuckleharley]

Hi, forum. I joined because a 1949 Chrysler Windsor coupe is for sale in my town, and she seems worthy of restoring, customizing, rodding ... something.

 

Trouble is, the current owner who intended a stock restoration junked the Spitfire Six when he and a local engine shop deemed it irreparable and he sent the Fluid Drive transmission to salvage because he discovered it wouldn't bolt to a donor flathead from a '50 Plymouth three-speed.

 

So now the car is an otherwise mostly complete, semi-solid roller. I'm trying to determine the availability of Spitfire Sixes and Fluid Drives, because this guy says that engine is impossible to find, hence his dumping the transmission and selling the would-be donor Plymouth.

 

He touted a 350 Chevy swap, even went so far as to say he'd done the measurements and the body would drop straight onto an S-10 frame if I wanted to go that route.

 

If I were to buy the car and determine that a non-stock driveline is the desired option, I'd definitely want to devise a Mopar solution.

 

At other forums I was told this was the place to find Mopar flathead experts to explore the flathead feasibility.

 

Below is the picture he's advertised the car with.

 

I have a few more pictures at this link to Photobucket.

 

Thanks for any advice offered!

 

The disc brakes is probably the best option these days. I think it is probably even cheaper to go that way now that it would be to find and buy good drums if your's are worn,and all the other stock parts to rebuild your brakes. Plus the safety issue of  having a dual-outlet master cylinder makes this a sensible thing to do.

 

At any rate,make damn sure you rebuild the wheel cylinders and the master cylinder if you want to save a few bucks now and your mechanical parts are usable.. Make sure your emergency brake is is top working order,too. You can do the disc brake swap with all new brake lines once you get the car on the road and your expenses are under control.

 

Your idea to build a period teen hotrod from the 50's is the exact same plans I have for my 42 Dodge business coupe and my 38 Ford standard humpback tudor. Both are keeping their stock running gear except the 38 Ford is getting 40 Ford hydraulic brakes. Mostly because I already have them from a junk 40 Ford somebody gave me to pull it out of the woods and haul it off. The 38 is getting old script style finned aluminum Edlebrock heads and a Edelbrock 3x2 intake with chrome 97's because I already have them,too. The 42 Dodge is getting a 2x1 intake,split exhaust,and maybe a finned aluminum Edgy head. Nothing  high tech out of either,but I bet both will be as much fun to drive as any high tech hot rod out there.

Edited May 29, 2013 by knuckleharley

[GlennCraven]

Your idea to build a period teen hotrod from the 50's is the exact same plans I have for my 42 Dodge business coupe and my 38 Ford standard humpback tudor. Both are keeping their stock running gear except the 38 Ford is getting 40 Ford hydraulic brakes. Mostly because I already have them from a junk 40 Ford somebody gave me to pull it out of the woods and haul it off. The 38 is getting old script style finned aluminum Edlebrock heads and a Edelbrock 3x2 intake with chrome 97's because I already have them,too. The 42 Dodge is getting a 2x1 intake,split exhaust,and maybe a finned aluminum Edgy head. Nothing  high tech out of either,but I bet both will be as much fun to drive as any high tech hot rod out there.

 

These both sound like a blast, and yes, should be as much fun to drive as anything else on the road.

[GlennCraven]

As donor cars go, this 1974 Dart Swinger in my area (40 minutes away) looks suitable.

 

First bidder has it at $300 and there's no reserve. Supposedly a good-running 318 and it's an automatic transmission.

 

While I do have respect for all old cars, big and small, pricey and cheap, my conscience would be relatively clear if I took a '74 Swinger out of circulation. Does anyone else here think that would be a shame?

 

If it stays cheap, it has:

 

• A running 318. (Though a stock '74 318 probably makes no more power than the '69 Valiant 273 I've been eyeballing, it has more potential upon rebuild.)
• The automatic transmission I need. (I'm guessing a 904? Might it be a 727?)
• Identical model year and color to my first girlfriend's car -- heck, it could BE her car -- so I could crush the remnants as she crushed my tender teenage heart. 

How about other useful parts? From what I read, the rear end ratio could be a 2.75 (standard), or a 3.21 or 3.55 (optional). Would the latter be Sure Grips?

 

This vintage of Dart should have front disc brakes. Rear are drums from what I can find online. Anything in there I can use?

 

Would its radiator be better than a stock '49 Windsor's if I'm swapping in a V8?

 

Anything else?

 

I get paid tomorrow and will go offer on the Windsor. If he sells it, then I can see about being a player on this Dart if that makes sense. It's definitely close enough to visit and hear it run before bidding.

[Plymouthy Adams]

A-body 2 door swinger with v8..yeah..that pup should survive....

[Young Ed]

A-body 2 door swinger with v8..yeah..that pup should survive....

 

I agree with Tim and those cars have a following of people who put bigger engines in them etc. I say its unlikely it will stay cheap. I would guess 1000 or higher.

[Plymouthy Adams]

I agree Ed...the odds are this will run a bit more money in the end...I looked long and hard for a A-body V-8 and found nothing in my area that was not 4 times the price and 3 times worse than described..

Edited May 30, 2013 by Plymouthy Adams