Water soluable oil as coolant?

[Jeff Balazs]

A buddy of mine has an early 60's truck that he "rescued" about 15 years ago. The engine was sound but the cooling system was a rusty mess. He got it as clean as he could with the engine in place and started using water soluable oil mixed with water as coolant. He claims that this has worked flawlessly. He had the head off recently and said the cooling passages were clean and looked like they had been glazed or varnished over.

Anybody out there have any experience or knowledge with this?

Jeff

[TodFitch]

No personal experience with this but "glazed or varnished over" doesn't sound like a good thing to me with respect to heat transfer.

[greg g]

I have heard of instances of Kerosene being used as coolant.

[Don Coatney]

On the old forum there was a discussion of using motor oil in the radiator instead of water. Some old timers claimed to have done so or to have known someone who has done so with success. My opinion is I dont want to be responsible for spreading a network of stuff more slippery than bannana peels on the highway should I ever have a front end collision. And like Tod I dont think an internal shelacking of the coolant system does anything to aid in heat transfer. If oil would add to the coolant capacity to lower engine temperature why did the factory not go for it? I know for a fact that at least one manufacture (International Harvestor) sold used engine "break in" oil in 55 gallon drums to IH employees for a very low price. I did not investigate the boiling point nor the heat transfer capacity of engine oil but I suspect it is not as effective as glycol enriched water.

[Jeff Balazs]

Well I thought this was an interesting topic. And might even have some application for some of our trucks......

I know there were many true oil cooled motorcycle engines in the UK during the pre-war years. This is not really the same as those as water is actually by percentage the main component of my buddies coolant.

I think Redline has a track approved product called wet-stuff or something like that. Supposedly it is much safer on the track than glycol coolants as it is actually less slippery. Don't know what is in this stuff.

What my buddy said was that the cooling passages in his engine looked sort of glassy and that it had totally arrested the rust. I do know that his truck does not run hot as we have used it to haul our bikes to the desert several times.

Jeff

[desoto1939]

There are several collent products on the market Wetter Water, Radiator relief

The radiator relief seems to have less of a foaming actions as compared to Wetter Watter.

It seems to help keep the engine cooler. They do recommend running straight water with these products.

I also use a pint of radiator Rust Inhibutor in the old car. This is made by GUNK and it helps to stop rust and scale and also is a lubricant.

We used this in the cars back in the 60's. I put a pint in every year. The big problem with antifreeze is that the anti rusting chemicals do break down with time and then the antifreeze will turn from green to a chocolate color becasue it is now not preventing the block from rusting. So this is why you need to change and flus the rad approx every 3-5 years.

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[Rusty O'Toole]

In the days of alcohol antifreeze, before 1960, it was common practice to drain out the antifreeze and fill the rad with water for the summer. You were supposed to add a small can of rust inhibitor to protect the cooling system from rust and to lubricate the water pump. This was some type of soluble oil.

Filling the rad with motor oil might work but it would be murder on the rubber parts of the system like rad hoses and heater hoses. Oil is less efficient than water in transferring heat but might be OK in winter cold.

I too have heard of using oil in remote very cold areas. My father used transformer oil in his Dodge in 1947, this was when he worked for Kimberly Clark paper company in Kapuskasing Ontario a very cold place in winter. He swiped the oil from the factory, they had a huge vat of it for their transformers.

[Jim Shepard]

I heard this from several "old-timers" and ran half and half (water/soluable [grinding oil] oil) in my B2b for about 5-6 years with no ill effects. When I overhauled the motor this year everything looked good, especially the distribution tube. I thought it might be good for the water pump also. The only down side was it weeped through the heater hoses. For that reason alone I decided against it after the overhaul...

[Jeff Balazs]

Hi Jim;

Well that pretty much confirms what my buddy Vic was telling me. He is a precision machinist (heart valves these days) so I think that is probably the same mixture he is using. I will have to ask him more about it and his hoses.....although I am not adverse to changing them out fairly often. That is easy and cheap insurance in our climate. He had the same comment about the water pump.

I may be slightly paranoid about this as I flushed and fished a couple of pounds of rust out of my engine. And the old water distribution tube came out in about 15 pieces!!! Hard to say if it had ever been changed. I know the engine was probably rebuilt twice....I suppose they could have left an old one in? But I don't think it likely. What I do know is that I would like to avoid going through that whole process again.

Jeff

[48Dodger]

Antifreeze coolant improves the problems with using just water. It lowers the freezing point (−34 °F) and raises the boiling point (+265 °F) and protects against corrosion.

You'll find water soluble oils in machine shops protecting equipment against corrosion.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=water+soluble+oil&gbv=2&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=15860423305929056467#

Its in old farm tractors too and the like. You won't find it in newer cars anymore because of the filmy build up that prevents proper heat transfer, attacks rubber, the multitude of alloys and plastics that corrode at different levels, and that in most cases the oil makes worse. Modern coolants are designed to address these modern engine enviroments.

I would easily choose modern coolants over water soluble oil for the flat six....even though I can't say you would do any real damage with the latter. Tap water is the evil one. With all the coodies added....it will start scaling up your internal surfaces in hours.

48D

Edited May 9, 2012 by 48dodger

[Don Coatney]

I also use a pint of radiator Rust Inhibutor in the old car. This is made by GUNK and it helps to stop rust and scale and also is a lubricant. Rich Hartung

small can of rust inhibitor to protect the cooling system from rust and to lubricate the water pump.

I agree that adding a rust inhibutor is good espically if running straight water. What I dont understand is why anything in the cooling system needs lubricant. The water pump and thermostat are the only moving parts. The thermostat does not require lubricant and there is no metal to metal contact with the impeller. The water pumps today (including the replacement new pumps for these engines) have pre lubricated sealed bearings protected from contact with the coolant by a water tight seal.

[48Dodger]

Pump lubrication is a myth. The only thing is really does is protect, or "lube" the seal that sees the water. Modern water pumps don't require lubrication in the antifreeze to operate correctly. If the coolant comes in contact with the bearings, the pump has already failed. The older antifreezes had silicate additives, that prevented mineral build up, which was an abrasive to the seal...hence water-pump seal lubricant. So if your gonna make your own coolant...you use water, a rust inhibitor (abrasive), and pump lubricant (pump seal protector)....why do that when chemist have already designed a better coolant for your engine.

Why do I care about this? In racing...over heating is a real horsepower thief. You have to control air flow, coolant, timing, oil, octane...etc to get everything out of it.

48D

Edited May 9, 2012 by 48dodger

[Plymouthy Adams]

So who is going to be the first to put KY jelly in the ole radiator..it is soluble in water, protect rubber compnents and would provides a lubrication qualitiy unsurpassed in the ole girl.

Like an idiot, I grabbed the wrong container and put some quart or better oil in my 1996 Chrysler radiator..and trust me with the remote closed system this car has that was not the best thing to do. I did flush the car and got it out completely and in the process I think even did a good job cleaning the block and radiator. I removed the thermostat and used about 2 cups of B52 brown soap cleaner and run this through in the block about 10 minutes, drained and refilled using 2 more cups of brown soap and repeated the process..after that I did two clear rinses running a closed loop..then another 10 minutes of clear flush where the garden hose input equaled the output of the pump at idle for a total clear flush. B52 brown soap is one of the best cleaner I have seen on the market today. If there is an oil film in your bolck you wish to remove..this is about the safest way to do it..other flush products concentrate on scale build up and will address this and not the oil.

[Jeff Balazs]

Here I was thinking the "hot ticket" would be Capsaicin oil and Vichy water.....

Dodger guy Ware did yer go to skool boy? Everyone know's it is spelled Cooties And that all girls have them I am pretty certain they didn't get them from drinking the water.

I really can't say that it is a good idea to make your own coolant. I was skeptical when my friend told me about his mixture..... but then we have Jim's experiment that seems to have been relatively successful. It is something to think about. Not saying that the chemist's don't make a good product.....but my guess is they are not making it specifically for the old rusty engines that some of us are trying to revive.

Jeff

[Dave72dt]

As long as you did really good job cleaning it, it won't need descaling, derusting for say, maybe 40 to 50 years. It'll take that long to get that bad.

[Rusty O'Toole]

Times change, cars change, even chemistry changes. They seem to have changed the formula for antifreeze in the 80s. After that the coolant is not corrosive. I have taken apart motors from the 80s and newer and the coolant passages were perfectly clean and free of corrosion, even the aluminum parts looked like new. I know these cars never had their antifreeze changed.

I just use antifreeze 50/50 with water and never change it.

[48Dodger]

Dodger guy Ware did yer go to skool boy? Everyone know's it is spelled Cooties And that all girls have them I am pretty certain they didn't get them from drinking the water.

LOL....I don't know how to spell hairpees either...so maybe that's a good thing.

I really can't say that it is a good idea to make your own coolant. I was skeptical when my friend told me about his mixture..... but then we have Jim's experiment that seems to have been relatively successful. It is something to think about. Not saying that the chemist's don't make a good product.....but my guess is they are not making it specifically for the old rusty engines that some of us are trying to revive.

Jeff

What they make now is BETTER than what was made for the old rusty engines we have...

For clarity...what I was saying about making your own coolant....was more for race cars. It can be done for trailer queens and daily drivers too. Race cars create more horse power in the cooler range of 90 to 100 deg. This has been proven on the dynos. The ethylene glycol (the antifreeze ingredient) can actually work against you in reaching best operating temps at the starting line. This is why Wetter Water reccomends not mixing it with reg coolant for best results. In the past Nascar teams used a Engine Coolant Recirculation Systems to bring engine temps down to @60 or 70 degrees before qualifying. They didn't use it on race day because its not a fast process. It involved pumping out the hot water and replacing it with very cold water (you'd see big water puddles and ice trucks in the garage area if you ever watch qualifing day). Don't know if they still use that system with all the reccent rule changes on radiator sizes etc...

48D

http://www.stockcarracing.com/techarticles/69898_engine_cooling_systems/index.html

[Jeff Balazs]

Tim;

I thought you would get a kick out of that. Harpys ?.....not to be confused with herpes although you could get one from the other.

I understood your response. And there is no question that the antifreeze we can buy today is far superior to what was available back in the day. I know it works fine in a clean or new engine. It will probably work fine in mine as well.

I have it as clean as it can get without removing it from the truck. I have left to two lower welch plugs out and will flush one more time before I finish putting it all back together to run it.

Jeff