Bullying

[Normspeed]

From another thread today: "I have been told by other forum members that my ideals are not correct. My ideals being that you should know just a little bit about your car before you spend big money on repairs. So I say toss all the information you have received about your engine from forum members such as myself and others down the sewer and go with what ever your family plumbing business can support. Find and purchase a matched set of piston rods to make your machinist happy and go for it. Hopefully with you enriching the economy my 401K will also see an enrichment.

I welcome comments from normspeed and others."

OK, I took the bait. Don, a couple days back I contacted you by PM, not on the forum, because I didn't want to add to the public unpleasantries that seem to be taking over parts of the P15-D24 forum these days. Apparently though, you would like to go a different route. If you are referring to my PM when you say you were told your ideals are not correct, you know and I know that I did not even use that word. If you're not sure of that, go back and re-read my PM. If you'd feel better I can cut and paste what both of us said in that exchange, unedited, into this thread, so there would be no chance of someone being painted with the wrong brush.

This forum has never been about baiting people into arguments, nor is it about badgering or bullying certain members. There used to be a lot of room given to people who are not professional mechanics and who might ask questions that have been asked before. Some of us have lost that helpful spirit, in a big way.

Fact is, when it comes to bullies, there are three types of people. Those who stand behind a bully and cheer him on, hoping they will not be his next target; those who say nothing because they also hope to keep a low profile and avoid being the next target; and, those who speak up.

I've spoken my thoughts to you in a PM, not publicly, but you just don't seem to get it. All I can say is, to those who think they own the forum, or think no one else should have different opinions or ask questions, have a blast, and I hope the rest of the forum members can, one way or another, keep enjoying the forum and avoid being the next target. There are a few here who know what I'm talking about, because direct conversations with them indicated they were victims of this stuff in the past. I've witnessed some of it and it is getting worse.

Let me know if you'd like me to accurately quote what our brief PM conversation consisted of. I stand behind what I said to you. Meanwhile, I'm sad to say that I've pretty much had it with the downward turn this forum has taken. A sad thing to see, and I don't need the aggravation of seeing any more of it. We've lost a lot of quality participants in the past year or so and there is no doubt that the negativity here is a part of the reason. This has gone from the best forum on the internet to just another forum.

Lastly, you seem to be very proud of getting "grumpier by the day". I don't see anything to be proud of in that statement, nor in proving it in your posts to others. It's just not what this place ever stood for, in the past.

That's all I have to say. Guess you could say I'm one of those who speak up.

[michael.warshaw]

i thank you mr norm speed for sticking, up for me, im just trying to get info on my car, and build a superior p15. I got into this knowing nothing, now i know alot more, (not as much as most of you) but more then i came in with, this post is to all the guys who have stuck up for me, Thanks and lets get back to our classic mopars.

[randroid]

Normspeed,

Since sometime in the mid-'90's I flew simulated WWII aircraft on Aces High (www.hitechcreations.com) and enjoyed the heck out of it. I belonged to a squadron on one of the three opposing teams that wasn't particularly large but, because of really good teamwork, we were considered a dominant force. About six years ago, for reasons unknown to me, politics became a big issue and the sense of comradeship began to fade. I have a 3'x5' American flag hanging on my livingroom wall with a certificate from the crew of an Army MC-130E Combat Talon verifying the flag flew on a combat mission over Afghanistan, and one of the signatures on that certificate was that of a member of our "Squadron" and I'm proud to display that flag. That Squadron has now all but disbanded because of personal agendas, and while I haven't flown in Aces High for almost two years I honestly miss that band of brothers. I feel very much the same way about this forum in that I would miss the comradeship of these members, all of them.

I, too, share your concern for the well-being of this forum and our loosely-knit 'band of brothers' and what I'm going to do about it is exactly zip, zilch, nada, nil. I'm also not going to tell anybody of my religious or political beliefs because they have pitifully little to do with our cars and I've seen what 'expanding the horizons' of a cohesive group can do.

If anyone sends me a PM I try to answer it directly, but a few weeks ago I received two extremely informative DVDs on metal working from a member of this forum and it just occurred to me that I have not so much as sent him a thank-you note. I'll do so as soon as I finish this note and hope that he doesn't think I'm some ungrateful s.o.b. for not having done so when the time was appropriate.

We have all said many times that what we do with our cars (in my case painting, or at least threatening to do so) is our own business, and I feel the same about most everything else here. For example, should I feel that any member of this forum is beginning to feel an air of superiority due to seniority of membership, number of posts written, or (OMG!) pure knowledge of our vehicles, his initials had better include the letters 'GT & K' or I'm not going to give him much time of my day. I'll respect his seniority and knowledge but until he starts paying my rent or buying my paint I'm simply willing to let him go on his trip. If we weren't all a bunch of independent cusses we wouldn't be here.

Normspeed, I got the eerie feeling that you're almost ready to leave us, and we've already lost one too many of our Norms lately. It would trouble me greatly to lose you and your contributions. My brother lives near Safford, AZ, and my once-every-few-years trip to see him might be more pleasant if I were to go through Demming. The road from there to Safford is on an original pioneer trail and is a lot like Old 66, and I know a really decent dude who lives there and who I'd like to meet someday. Hope I can still contact him when the time is right.

Perhaps this note missed the point of your topic, perhaps it didn't. Just my two cents.

-Randy

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Edited January 7, 2010 by randroid

[RobertKB]

This forum has never been about baiting people into arguments, nor is it about badgering or bullying certain members. There used to be a lot of room given to people who are not professional mechanics and who might ask questions that have been asked before. Some of us have lost that helpful spirit, in a big way.

Fact is, when it comes to bullies, there are three types of people. Those who stand behind a bully and cheer him on, hoping they will not be his next target; those who say nothing because they also hope to keep a low profile and avoid being the next target; and, those who speak up.

I've spoken my thoughts to you in a PM, not publicly, but you just don't seem to get it. All I can say is, to those who think they own the forum, or think no one else should have different opinions or ask questions, have a blast, and I hope the rest of the forum members can, one way or another, keep enjoying the forum and avoid being the next target. There are a few here who know what I'm talking about, because direct conversations with them indicated they were victims of this stuff in the past. I've witnessed some of it and it is getting worse.

Meanwhile, I'm sad to say that I've pretty much had it with the downward turn this forum has taken. A sad thing to see, and I don't need the aggravation of seeing any more of it. We've lost a lot of quality participants in the past year or so and there is no doubt that the negativity here is a part of the reason. This has gone from the best forum on the internet to just another forum.

Lastly, you seem to be very proud of getting "grumpier by the day". I don't see anything to be proud of in that statement, nor in proving it in your posts to others. It's just not what this place ever stood for, in the past.

That's all I have to say. Guess you could say I'm one of those who speak up.

Ditto.

I have asked several times for forum members who do not like one another to use the IGNORE feature but the only thing that has been ignored is my advice.

Guys, we had and I still believe most of the time, have, the best forum but it certainly has gone downhill lately with a lot of negative comments. There have been a few members who have posted that they are not visiting as often and there are certainly some who have left over this issue.

I don't mind helping anyone on the forum who I can no matter how dumb the questions. I am not a mechanic and I always say I only have enough mechanical knowledge to get myself into trouble. I knew nothing when I started with old cars nearly 35 years ago. All that I have learned I learned by asking dumb questions of people who knew a lot more than I did and were willing to share. That was/is true of this forum and why I like it so much so let's please keep it that way. Once again I ask you to use the IGNORE feature if another forum member bothers you and give the rest of us a break.

[JIPJOBXX]

What can be added to this thread is that it is meant to be fun, interesting and informative.

I choose informative first and then interesting and the last a few chosen oft topic subjects just to make a bond with other people here on this site.

No one was born with the knowledge we get over life but earn it by experiences and trials. I know I will be the first one up to step up to the plate and state hay I have made allot of mistakes but I try not to make that same mistake again.

So that being said I do enjoy helping other people here if I can and well if I can't I won't mock them but just try to push them in a direction that I would think they should be going.

Thanks for running this site and I love all the mopar folks here and there stories and problems. Jon

[michael.warshaw]

Thanks for running this site and I love all the mopar folks here and there stories and problems. Jon

i feel the same way, when im in hear i want to have a warm feeling knowing im conversing with people that have the same disease that i do, and that is loving classic mopars.

[dezeldoc]

If i piss anyone off just let me know and i will back down. i can be headstrong at times and lose site of the fact that not everyone has the same knowledge and experience as me. when i am wrong i try and apologize as i like to treat people as i want to be treated. my kids have been through hell with me when they were learning to wrench on bikes and cars, and we have gotten into more than one fight and i love it when they prove me wrong as i know they have been listening and learning. my oldest son is a Ford master mechanic and has 3 more certs till he reaches the highest rated Ford master mechanic. my other son is a great fabricator and has been building offroad rock crawler jeeps and making and selling his own parts. i guess if they can learn from me i hope others can to. so lets all try and help everyone out and be civil about it, life is to short to beat each other up like we have been doing.

Edited January 7, 2010 by dezeldoc

[Rollie���]

<SNIP>

Fact is, when it comes to bullies, there are three types of people. Those who stand behind a bully and cheer him on, hoping they will not be his next target; <SNIP>

i thank you mr norm speed for sticking, up for me, im just trying to get info on my car, and build a superior p15. <SNIP>.

sorry.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Rollie���

[Dodgeb4ya]

There needs to be no big boy "Top Dogs" here on this great forum! I really love to be of help to others here without expecting anything - except being corrected if I offer inaccurate info!. I've been around these old 1946-54 MoPars all my life-after all have been a mechanic/welder most all my life. I always try to be of friendly help with out an on a pedestal attitude too! Normspeed give the forum one more chance-- no one wants to see you leave! This forum has a lot to offer all.

Bob

[Don Coatney]

Norm;

I guess I dont understand the Bullying aspect unless you are bullying me into leaving. I stated in my PM to you what my beliefs were and you did the same to me. And my beliefs are that someone should know a bit about there automobile before they spend big bucks in an area where they dont need to. When I saw this very issue come up I felt it was time to go public and ask for comments from you and others. Call it negative if you like but my ideals are to point out to others who dont see where the problem is with over spending on un-needed repairs.

When I see good answers given by several folks but ignored by the original person asking the question I get grumpy. Sorry but that is my nature.

[chopt50wgn]

I always told my kids when they were growing up that there are no dumb questions. You ask questions to find answers, they are not dumb questions. Mayabe some people feel better about themselves by thinking they "know" more than others, I also bet they are very lonely people too.

I come here because I have asked many questions, and I always got the correct answers. THAT"S WHY I ASK !!! cause I don't know.

All the guys here are top notch in my book and I thank all of them for helping me when I needed it.

[PatS....]

I think trying to find out why a person asks questions that don't quite make sense, and then after getting the correct answers, ignores them, isn't bullying at all.

As it turns out the person in question is being told properly why he needs certain parts from his builder, but doesn't pass that reasoning or explanation along to the forum in order that we have a complete picture of the situation so that the best answer can be given.

If the whole picture was laid out properly as explained to the poster from those he hired, then we would understand and there would be no perceived "bullying"

In short, if you have a question, tell us as much of the back story as possible and then, either use the answers or tell us we're out to lunch.

As far as the grumpy guy goes, from what I have seen he helped slather the mortar on quite a few bricks in the foundation of this great place, along with Gerald, who bought the bricks, Norm M., Greg and a bunch of others.

I would hate to see anyone like that go.

Edited January 7, 2010 by PatS....

[41/53dodges]

ditto.

[michael.warshaw]

I think trying to find out why a person asks questions that don't quite make sense, and then after getting the correct answers, ignores them, isn't bullying at all.

As it turns out the person in question is being told properly why he needs certain parts from his builder, but doesn't pass that reasoning or explanation along to the forum in order that we have a complete picture of the situation so that the best answer can be given.

If the whole picture was laid out properly as explained to the poster from those he hired, then we would understand and there would be no perceived "bullying"

In short, if you have a question, tell us as much of the back story as possible and then, either use the answers or tell us we're out to lunch.

As far as the grumpy guy goes, from what I have seen he helped slather the mortar on quite a few bricks in the foundation of this great place, along with Gerald, who bought the bricks, Norm M., Greg and a bunch of others.

I would hate to see anyone like that go.

disagree, try expalining something which you have no idea what your talking about.

[Young Ed]

Michael your machine shop told you the same thing that dezeldoc was told over the phone. Nothing wrong with you not understanding. However if you dont understand you should restate exactly what they told you and ask for a meaning. That would work much better to us here and for you so you could learn what it means.

[michael.warshaw]

Michael your machine shop told you the same thing that dezeldoc was told over the phone. Nothing wrong with you not understanding. However if you dont understand you should restate exactly what they told you and ask for a meaning. That would work much better to us here and for you so you could learn what it means.

true.

[desoto1939]

Ok gys and gals,

Lets all put this topic to rest. We are all interested in restroing our Mopar cars and trucks and other off brands. It basically does not matter which brand or style of vehicle we have chosen to restore. Some people want to restore a vehicle to as they came off the assembly line others want to improve the car to a more modern driveable car or truck.

Each owner has their own direction and opinion on what they want to do and how long it might take them to achieve the finished product. I support the members that want to maintain and improve their cars.

As stated in prior statements some of the members have been in auto mechanics as a living and also have done body work as a living. These are the members that can offer all of the members some of their best advise on how they handled situations that have occurred during their lifetime of working on cars.

Since most of us are not mechanics but do have some mechanical skills we do ask for your advise and rely on your experiences. I for one is a member on this side of the forum. I try to answer questions that I feel can be benefical to peole of provide information that I can verify to be correct.

All this being said lets all try to change with the start of 2010 and turn over a new leaf. We are here to help each other and not setup a hate relationship.

If you have a problem with someones question or answer or disagree so strongly than you might to reply to the person via personal email just to cut down on the BS that seems to fired against each other.

Lets just enjoy the hobby. I was told always to pass on my knowedge to someone else and then someone else will pass on their knowledge.

I do not have a Ply or Doge that fits within this forums design but have another vintage Mopar 1939 Desoto that has some of the same mechanical attributes so this is why I try to contribute information.

If anyone has an issue with my comments please feel free to contact me directly on my home email at Desoto1939@aol.com.

So from this point on lets all be on a more positive basis with each other. lets support the most important rule that was taught to us a kids, the GOLDEN RULE, Do unot others as you want ours to do unto you, Respect begets Respect!!!!!!!!!

Rich Hartung

[MacGyver]

Anybody wanna get a beer?

[michael.warshaw]

im down, meet me at mortons 551 5th Avenue

New York, NY 10176-0001

(212) 972-3315

im buying.

[moose]

im down, meet me at mortons 551 5th Avenue

New York, NY 10176-0001

(212) 972-3315

im buying.

Sounds good. I like a good steak, but do they sell Schlitz?

[Young Ed]

I dont drink beer or live in NY. Can't you mail me some grey goose?

[Joe Flanagan]

Don't you guys drink aquavit or something out there?

[dezeldoc]

Damn that would be the expensivest free beer i have ever had! west coast to east coast road trip for a beer!

[55 Fargo]

Damn that would be the expensivest free beer i have ever had! west coast to east coast road trip for a beer!

Hey just get a tele-conference call going, phone Mkie at the bar, open a Coors,Bud,Miller,Pabst,Hamms,Strohs, Old Milwaukee, Moosehead, Labatts Blue,Molson Canadian, and enjoy. Gotta be a cool thing soem of those bars in New York, would like to see some myself, even though I do not drink alcohol.................Fred

[Don Coatney]

disagree, try expalining something which you have no idea what your talking about.

Michael;

There-in is the issue. This discussion began when I attempted to probe you into learing a bit about your automobile by asking that you learn about torquing your head. I was told to lighten up by normspeed so I deleted my posting. However the fact is IF you followed the advice given by me and others you can and will learn about your car and cuss or discuss it in a language understood by most everybody here.

A lesson I have learned in life is to stand my ground when I am right or at least when I feel I am right. And in this case I feel I am right. Your lack of knowledge could have cost you a lot of money. Fortunately a forum member stepped up to the plate and bailed you out. His approach was better than my approach but our objectives were both the same.